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Tube Notching

Hello All,
I'm hoping someone cann Help me with what appears to be an old issue.
Does someone have a tutorial or proceedure for creating multiple tube joints that are at compound angles I have already been through the forum search a couple of times & cannot seem to find a reliable & accurate solution.
Unless I am missing something obvious it appears that i would be better off building the structure & creating as built drawings as parts are completed ! very frustrating

Using AD12 Exp

Regards Adrian
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
I'm also struggling with the same issue now. However, in reality, the issue is not how to make the joints, it's how to get each piece into a drawing.

It's not too hard to make the tubing. There's sweep "to geometry", for example that takes a simple tube profile sketch, a path vector (line or curve) and some geometry to bump into or trim to. The path part is a little tricky though. I just discovered that if your path vector ends just shy of the geometry, it never trims. However, if it goes beyond your "to geometry" that's OK. So, it is actually more than a direction for the sweep, it's got to get you to or past the trim geometry, which is not made clear in the help system.

Also, there is the shell command, which will make a hollow tube from an extrusion or sweep.

Below is a tubing example I just did. The tubes that cross each other are in the same plane. The vertical tube is not. So, it is not the most general situation, but does illustrate the compound joint case. The tubing is in one part file. The thing it fits into is an assembly and that's where I extracted the geometry used to make the tubing brace part itself. The sticky part is that the individual tubes (4 of them in this case) each need to be in a drawing view (or 2 or 3) so they can be fabricated. Unfortunately, in Alibre Design this is very difficult to do.



It is not possible to trim the tubes as needed in an assembly. You've got to do it in a part file. With the assembly, doing the drawings would be easy, but you can't make the 4 parts there, I don't think. If you could "trim to geometry" while making each individual piece in the parent assembly file, that would work fine. You'd end up with 4 parts you could draw in 2D.



In a part file, you can make the pieces, but there is no easy way to make the drawings of each piece. Necessity is the Mother of Invention and I need to make the drawings for these 4 pieces, so it will get done by hook or by crook. I'm experimenting with part file configurations and hiding various edges in drawings, etc. to see what I can do. If this is useful to you, and assuming that I succeed, I'll be happy to share my results.

I also need to do the much more general case, which would be 4 or 5 tubes meeting on a chassis somewhere in space where the angles an directions would be more varied. However, I think solving this simple problem will lead to a solution in the more general case too.

Cheers,

Lonnie
 

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H-L-Smith

Senior Member
Thanks for the reference to the topic, Ralf. It does work, but the process of top-down the way it currently exists for doing space structures is clumsy and way too complicated. I hope I can illustrate why with the following examples.

When you do space structures in contrast to machine design, you frequently start out with a basic layout and dimensions, or at least your first guess about what they should be. In the case of a car chassis, it may be the layout for the engine, passenger and trunk compartments. Frequently, this is done using bulkheads or at least some simple plane-like geometry that divides up the functional areas. The first graphic is just a quick idea of what I mean. It's a part file. Now, if you could have separable, individual pieces in the Alibre part file to put in drawings or run FEA analysis on, you'd actually be fine and could use assemblies in the traditional way to join the larger part "chunks" into a complete design.



Now, if one could use this part file as a basic layout in an assembly and use the points and other geometry there to build individual parts (tubes or RHS parts typically in my work) you'd be fine and could make that a practical way to go. However, here is what happens when you load the part file with your layout geometry in an assembly:



Here I have the reference geometry turned on for the part file or otherwise you would see nothing at all. Notice the sketches and vertices (points) are no longer visible. You have nothing to use, really.

If I go to make a new part, hoping I can at least save the reference geometry from the base layout and maybe see the vertices when I do a 3D sketch, here is what you get:



Nada, zip, zilch, quacko otherwise known as total emptiness. You can't see the reference geometry in the new part file or the sketches, points, etc. This does not make it easy to do space structures in Alibre Design because neither part files or assemblies are friendly to this kind of thinking. You've got to start putting reasonably well developed parts into an assembly before you can really use the geometry to build other parts. This is truly putting the cart before the horse in this kind of design work. The parts typically are constructed to support the overall layout and flow from it. You don't start with the individual pieces and design the larger thing to fit those. Other 3D products do support design methods friendly to this kind of work.

As I said before, if part files in Alibre supported making individual elements (weldments in SolidWorks part files is one workable system) then that would work just fine and I wouldn't be writing this. But, right now Alibre Design does not work that way. Worse, you can't really lay these thing out in a part file even using 3D sketches with points and lines. You can see the 2D geometry from 3D sketching, but it does not work the other way round. Your 3D geometry is only useful for things like paths for sweeps and lofts. Although writing this reply just gave me an idea to try in part files using 3D sketches with 2D sketches built normal to their end points.

I'll try it out, but for right now, I'm not convinced there are good work-arounds for doing 3D space structures in part files. If I could program and use the Alibre API, I believe it could be done with what Alibre has built in to it. I did figure out the fundamentals of how SolidWorks does weldments when I had a license for that product, at least the construction part. Accessing the individual elements for drawings and analysis in Alibre might be difficult. I no longer have the C/C++ proficiency to do that kind of programming work though, or I might give it a try.

Cheers,
 

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Lonnie has a real point here. Reference geometry is often a project wide constraint system. What we need, and this is far from the first post pointing this out, is a system whereby we can create a foundation reference file that contains nothing but reference geometry that can be loaded in as the foundation of a Part or Assembly model. If something changes, then we can edit the foundation reference file and have it update all the files using it when they are opened or rebuilt. The utility of this would be great and, it seems to me that this should not be a great programming challenge for the folks at Alibre.

Let me assume for the nonce that we will call this an AD_REF file. It would be an AD_PRT file with nothing in it but reference geometry (points, axis, and planes -- with names). It would be the first external entry in the AD_PRT or AD_ASM file. It would provide a consistent, easily revised, reference foundation for a project -- and it is only a special case of the existing AD_PRT file. The only programming challenge (not really any different from what has already been done with Boolean operations) is to allow it to be loaded into another AD_PRT file.

Simple, flexible, and powerful. What could be better?
 

anthonyws

Member
All this time and I thought I was just not getting it. I've seen others spaceframe designs and thought there mist be something I am missing. This point about assembly reference points and constrainability to them in a part workspace is the key to intuitive designs methodology.
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
Lew described the situation very well. +1 from my point of view.

Implicit in his description is that one should be able to "grab" the reference geometry of the project level file and use it in your part or assembly. The "project to sketch" and "maintain relationship" features we have now should work just fine provided we can select and project all the edges, lines, circles, midpoints, endpoints, nodes, etc., contained there. I just wanted to say that out loud in case it wasn't obvious.

This would be a wonderfully parametric thing to have available in Alibre Design and would set the product apart from many competitors.

Cheers,
 

dwc

Alibre Super User
This is needed not just for space frames.
It is exactly what I waslokking fore here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14697

I would use this in watch movement design.
I think this need is pretty universal in more complicated systems.
Don
 
Lonnie & Don,

This is far from my first rodeo in this arena. Euclid, the first 3D CAD system that anybody using today's systems would recognize, had the ability to base work off of a foundation reference file. Boeing spent seriously big bucks adding this capability to Catia. I created a work-around (that is a PITA because there is no simple way to incorporate revisions) that I use on projects where geometric "areas" are broken out and assigned to different designers. This is hardly a new issue.

Another similar area of need is that of reference (physical) geometry. What happens when one person is designing the "X-plus" approach to an interface while another person is designing the "X-minus" approach to that same interface? It would be seriously handy were I able to create an interface reference file (probably a "saved set of partial geometry" from the assembly file) that could be loaded into the sub-assembly portion that the "directed member of the team" is creating under the definitions provided by the "supervisory member of the team." This interface reference file would appear only in the sub-assembly file and not be "passed on" to used-on assemblies (etc.).

Think about it. I cannot tell you how often I have had a design where, at the interface between to people's area of work, there are mechanical connections (clevis or gusset fittings), electrical fittings (plug & socket connectors), hydraulic fittings (bulkhead fittings), and the like that are under the "supervisory control" of one member of the team to which the "directed" member of the team must mate -- and the actual connection points change as the project nears completion. Were the "directed" member of the team able to load & reference this geometry, they could create a rules-based control for their parts such as to make incorporation of (most) changes trivial!

If the interface in question is not merely a simple plane, this becomes even more powerful a tool.
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
MilesH said:

I didn't see a thing I would disagree with in your 2006 thread, Miles. In fact, I enthusiastically support your ideas. There were 8 or 9 others that also supported you at that time. I recognize some of those user IDs from recent entries in these forums, so several are long term and current users of Alibre Design.

Did you make an entry in the feedback/suggestions area (http://feedback.alibre.com/forums/16127 ... uggestions) at any time in the past? I'm taking Max at his word (i.e., I do believe him) when he tells us the plan for Alibre is to improve the product in all areas and make it outstanding. Maybe this kind of undertaking would be a good architectural improvement after the upcoming 2D drawing release?

Regards,

Lonnie
 

MilesH

Alibre Super User
H-L-Smith said:
Although writing this reply just gave me an idea to try in part files using 3D sketches with 2D sketches built normal to their end points.
I've used this method when working within a Part.
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
MilesH said:
H-L-Smith said:
Did you make an entry in the feedback/suggestions area (http://feedback.alibre.com/forums/16127 ... uggestions) at any time in the past?
I did a search and couldn't find anything I've entered on Suggestions that covers this area. So, my bad on that...

Let's itemise what we need, in order of priority.

I could sort through the posts (2006 & 2012) tomorrow to put them in a list. Do you have any time to do it before then?

Cheers,

Lonnie
 

MilesH

Alibre Super User
I'll make a start.

Some things I've previously added to Suggestions are relevant. eg. Extrude/Sweep To Geometry of another Part.
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
H-L-Smith said:
I could sort through the posts (2006 & 2012) tomorrow to put them in a list. Do you have any time to do it before then?

Cheers,

Lonnie

I just had a thought. Can we start an item in the feedback forum (viewforum.php?f=61) and then copy (or have the administrators copy) the other 2006 and 2012 entries into that new suggestion thread? That would save a lot of time. It would also have the original material there as a reference used by the development team for context and motivation of the suggestion.

Cheers,
 

MilesH

Alibre Super User
Improvements to Top Down modelling. With specific reference to the creation of tubular structures.

- Access to the Reference Geometry of all Parts whilst creating or editing a Part within Assembly.

- Access to Assembly Reference Geometry whilst creating or editing a Part within Assembly.

- Extrude/Sweep To Geometry of another Part whilst creating or editing a Part within Assembly.
[Ref. http://feedback.alibre.com/forums/16127 ... hancements]

- Bi-Directional "To Geometry" & "To Next" option for Extrude and Sweep
[Ref. http://feedback.alibre.com/forums/16127 ... ext-option]
 

MilesH

Alibre Super User
H-L-Smith said:
I just had a thought. Can we start an item in the feedback forum and then copy (or have the administrators copy) the other 2006 and 2012 entries into that new suggestion thread? That would save a lot of time. It would also have the original material there as a reference used by the development team for context and motivation of the suggestion.

We can link to all the relevant posts from a Suggestion topic.

Better to keep each item as a separate suggestion, I think.

I can upload multiple Suggestions using a spreadsheet :wink:
 
Thanks to All for info posting,
I thought i had missed something really obvious at first but came to the conclusion that in it's current form AD doesn't have enough functionality to construct complex round tube structures.
I Agree with the idea of referance geometry part file,But really the ability to trim part to other part surfaces from "Edit Here" in assembly would do the job for me> I wish I had spotted this when we changed to AD from A.N.Other Cad.Looks like We need to look at another software change. OOP's , in the meantime it's back to our old software for now to restore throughput .

Regards Adrian
 

H-L-Smith

Senior Member
Miles:

I've gotten started on the global reference data notion mentioned in this thread my you, Lew, myself and others. I started an official suggestion for it.

Suggestion ==> http://feedback.alibre.com/forums/16127 ... to-top-dow

There is a supporting topic (thread) in the associated explanations forum in support of suggestions too:

Supporting forum thread ==> viewtopic.php?f=61&t=14722&p=90033#p90032

The latter is intended for use by any interested Alibre Design user to add his or her comments or their suggestions for additional inclusions in the notion of global reference data and its uses within Alibre parts, assemblies and drawings.

I'd like to do something similar for the extended operations in part and assembly files that you and others have identified in this thread and elsewhere. There are a number of related, existing suggestions we could use along with yours including some of my own. Does that appeal to you?

Regards,

Lonnie
 
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