Alibre licensing

[dalbert]

Stop paying that F360 subscription and kiss your files bye bye. Happened to a colleague recently. That alone makes Alibre's maintenance seem like pittance.

I don't know what Moi is (but am interested).

In the interest of fairness and accuracy: 1) it's not true that if you stop paying the F360 subscription your files go away; according to Autodesk, they do not delete your files even if your subscription expires and 2) if nothing else, you can always download your files and back them up yourself; I have done this. What is true is that you won't be able to work on your project anymore without renewing your subscription.

As for the maintenance seeming like a pittance, clearly several users in this thread (including me) disagree, at least for casual users. The annual maintenance on AD Expert (the product that's comparable to F360) is about the same as the F360 subscription price. If I used AD for work frequently, it would be a no-brainer, but for hobby or infrequent small business use, the annual maintenance is substantial. That's the point of the discussion above.

That said, I am very happy that I bought Eagle before Autodesk turned it into a subscription-only product and I'm happy that I bought AD Expert for the same reason. I'm only paying for an F360 subscription to work on a particular project where the customer is using the newer version of Eagle. We are in complete agreement about the super-impressive service/support provided by the Alibre team; I think I've said so several times in this thread.

 

[bigseb]

Moi

Kind of like a Rhino Lite. Used to come bundled with Expert. Not sure why they stopped that, it's brilliant. Costs $295 and upgrades to the new version cost $100. I got it when it was on V2, it's now on V4. Worth every penny.

 

[bigseb]

As for the maintenance seeming like a pittance, clearly several users in this thread (including me) disagree, at least for casual users. The annual maintenance on AD Expert (the product that's comparable to F360) is about the same as the F360 subscription price. If I used AD for work frequently, it would be a no-brainer, but for hobby or infrequent small business use, the annual maintenance is substantial. That's the point of the discussion above.

That's part I don't get. People complaining about the maintenance. You don't want to pay for F360 but also don't want to pay for AD maintenance. Both softwares have pros and cons, pick one and make your peace with it.

 

[dalbert]

Kind of like a Rhino Lite. Used to come bundled with Expert.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Rhino either. Is MoI Moment of Inspiration (this: http://moi3d.com/index.htm)?
I'm new to 3d modeling; how exactly does it work with AD? What do you use it for?

That's part I don't get. People complaining about the maintenance. You don't want to pay for F360 but also don't want to pay for AD maintenance.

I think you get and stated it quite well: Alibre trades on the fact that their product is a purchase vs. a subscription. For many users, that carries the implication that you don't have to pay annually to keep using it (which is true). A new user, @BrianC, expressed concerns about whether he *needed* to pay for maintenance (in which case the value of purchase vs. subscribe becomes fuzzier, particularly when the costs of maintenance and subscription are comparable) and a discussion of the AD maintenance models ensued. AD does offer the option of purchase without maintenance, so AD is perfectly reasonable for someone who doesn't want to pay for F360 and also doesn't want to pay for AD maintenance. Hopefully someone with years of AD experience can help Brian with his concern.

Both softwares have pros and cons, pick one and make your peace with it.

I've picked (purchased) AD and I found the feedback of the users and staff in this forum very helpful in doing so. The thread subsequently shifted to concerns @BrianC raised about maintenance and telling him to "pick one and make your peace with it" doesn't seem particularly helpful. What might be helpful for him would be an indication that a version of AD from 3-5 years ago still works, illustrating that maintenance is not effectively required. Unfortunately, as I'm a new user, I can't offer that.

 

[bigseb]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Rhino either. Is MoI Moment of Inspiration (this: http://moi3d.com/index.htm)?
I'm new to 3d modeling; how exactly does it work with AD? What do you use it for?

Yes, that's it. It's a surface modeller that has some great design tools. Exports 3dm, stp, sat and igs.

... and telling him to "pick one and make your peace with it" doesn't seem particularly helpful.

I didn't. I was responding to your comment.

 

[Ken226]

Because someone mentioned Meshcam

When I was shopping for CAM software, I downloaded and tried Meshcam for a couple weeks.

With MeshCAM, I found it nearly impossible to get the toolpaths I wanted. I think it's mostly designed for guys carving wood art with a ball mill on a gantry router. If I remember correctly, during setup it even asks the user to select between plastic, wood and aluminum. MeshCAM is NOT in any way competitive with Fusions CAM module.

It's not even on the same planet as Fusion's CAM software. SprutCAM or VisualMill would be more comparable.

I guess that would make sense though, since Autodesk bought HSM Works and used it as the basis for InventorCAM and Fusion cam.

 

[BobSchaefer]

So I want to jump in and chime in as a casual user of AD and have expert and am currently not on maintenance. For the argument about not having maintenance for years and dealing with buggy software, I have been inactive for a couple years and find that AD still works just fine for me. Also, as to the past license fee, (I hate to point this out) but you do what I do, which is to wait for them to have a sale where they waive the fee and pick up maintenance for a year every couple of years to get the latest and greatest. (Usually happens around black Friday)

 

[Ken226]

I'm not finding Alibre to be buggy at all. It runs like a champ on both of my computers. A 2013 era laptop and 2016 desktop PC, both running Windows 7.

I'm getting along great with Design Pro V23. The 2d drawing and Assembly modules are fantastic. I'm finding both easier to use, and more intuitive than either Inventor or Fusion.

The Maintenance price isn't a big deal to me personally, but I'd love for the price to be competitive with Fusion. Just so I could be confident that Alibre will still exist in a few years.


My practice project for the last week was a quick change lathe toolpost. Kinda a cross between a Multifix and old Drehblitz.

 

[BrianC]

I'm not finding Alibre to be buggy at all. It runs like a champ on both of my computers. A 2013 era laptop and 2016 desktop PC, both running Windows 7.

I'm getting along great with Design Pro V23. The 2d drawing and Assembly modules are fantastic. I'm finding both easier to use, and more intuitive than either Inventor or Fusion.

The Maintenance price isn't a big deal to me personally, but I'd love for the price to be competitive with Fusion. Just so I could be confident that Alibre will still exist in a few years.


My practice project for the last week was a quick change lathe toolpost. Kinda a cross between a Multifix and old Drehblitz.

hate to say it .. but by looking at your models in the screen shots your definitely not a hobbyist user .
so yes the price should not bug you a bit .

 

[BrianC]

So I want to jump in and chime in as a casual user of AD and have expert and am currently not on maintenance. For the argument about not having maintenance for years and dealing with buggy software, I have been inactive for a couple years and find that AD still works just fine for me. Also, as to the past license fee, (I hate to point this out) but you do what I do, which is to wait for them to have a sale where they waive the fee and pick up maintenance for a year every couple of years to get the latest and greatest. (Usually happens around black Friday)

done pointed out that they never have sales . its just a sales tactic . they always have a sale . black friday is just about 5% off what there sales are all year ....

check out the wayback machine on google if you dont believe .

you know most software comes with the first year of updates Free with the purchase cost .
not here .

basically they tell you its on sale from 999$ for 799 or 750$ then add on another 350$ for 1 year updates
and guess what . your still paying what they called the regular cost plus some .

cause if it was 999$ plus maintenance no one would buy there software at all except big business .

so effectively they never have a sale and convince you that its on a huge sale .....
then charge you a 200$ punishment for not upgrading every year ....

and you have to pay 250$ more for a cam software and im sure it has maintenance also .

and if you want to make a nice photo with rendering you have to buy something else . and pay updates for that .

so as for the cost being affordable . that in the eyes of the beholder .

no pun intended .
just stating what i see

 

[dalbert]

done pointed out that they never have sales . its just a sales tactic . they always have a sale . black friday is just about 5% off what there sales are all year ....

check out the wayback machine on google if you dont believe .

you know most software comes with the first year of updates Free with the purchase cost .
not here .

basically they tell you its on sale from 999$ for 799 or 750$ then add on another 350$ for 1 year updates
and guess what . your still paying what they called the regular cost plus some .

cause if it was 999$ plus maintenance no one would buy there software at all except big business .

so effectively they never have a sale and convince you that its on a huge sale .....
then charge you a 200$ punishment for not upgrading every year ....

and you have to pay 250$ more for a cam software and im sure it has maintenance also .

and if you want to make a nice photo with rendering you have to buy something else . and pay updates for that .

so as for the cost being affordable . that in the eyes of the beholder .

no pun intended .
just stating what i see

I think that what @BobSchaefer was pointing out is that just as Alibre has regular (maybe perpetual) sales, they also periodically waive that $200 "punishment" and so you can purchase the software once, not pay maintenance unless it's for something you really need/want, and then go on maintenance (essentially paying for the upgrade) only when you need it without the $200 fee if you can wait for one of the sales (which you keep mentioning happen very often).

What seems clear from the discussion here is that with AD, you can purchase the software once and not have to pay again unless there's a new feature you feel is worthwhile. That's quite different from subscription products like F360 where you pay every year no matter what. That's one of big selling points for Alibre. We've heard this stated quite clearly in this thread both from Alibre staff and from many of their experienced users, so unless you have evidence otherwise, I think it's unreasonable to keep asserting that maintenance is required; it's clearly not.

With respect to pricing for commercial use, the math also seems pretty clear; let's say you want AD Pro + CAM = $800 + $250 = $1050. Compare that With F360 at $495/year, and after ~2 years, you're better off with AD. Even if you buy maintenance every few years to get new features, you're still better off with AD. Those prices are not high for any business, even small ones; I have been running small businesses for the last 15 years and am happy to pay $1-2K for a tool that I use regularly and can make me significantly more productive. Eagle CAD was one of the best purchases I ever made; I hope AD will be too.

OTOH, if you are strictly a hobby user, AD is a tough sell. It's impossible for a paid product to compete with good and free (which F360 is for hobby use). As I've said here, I would love for Alibre to find a way to reach the hobby and educational markets because I think it's necessary for their long-term health. I'm pretty sure Atom3D is not the answer.

In my case, I decided that I don't want to invest my time learning a package that, will lock me in forever if I want to use it for work. I'd rather invest my time learning something that I can pay for ONCE and then own and use forever, buying upgrades only if and when I need them. I don't think there's a point in simply beating up on Alibre because you think their product is too expensive or you don't like how they've bundled or un-bundled features like CAM. CAD packages are not mass-market products, so they will never have the sales volume to allow making and maintaining a product like this for a one-time purchase of a few hundred dollars. One way or another, Alibre needs to make enough to pay their staff and some profit.

 

[HaroldL]

Sounds like someone wants something for nothing. If you're using the software in a business can't you write it off as an expense? And if it's just a hobby, well then you make your justification to buy it and don't complain.

I've been using Expert for years, as a hobbyist, and when the maintenance comes due I usually get the 3-year package. It's a bit more initially but the annual is less and I don't have to worry about for a few years.

 

[BrianC]

if Alibre had a ecosystem of people sharing how too videos on youtube and facebook groups like all the other company's then you could say it was comparable .

but since it is primarily business users they never share videos and how toos .. making it very difficult to learn for the new user .
and also making it less attractive .

 

[BrianC]

Sounds like someone wants something for nothing. If you're using the software in a business can't you write it off as an expense? And if it's just a hobby, well then you make your justification to buy it and don't complain.

I've been using Expert for years, as a hobbyist, and when the maintenance comes due I usually get the 3-year package. It's a bit more initially but the annual is less and I don't have to worry about for a few years.

your rudeness was not needed .

complaining is how we customers keep company's in check .

same with any form of life . when your sick you complain to your doctor so he can fix it .

when prices are too high and unfair you have to speak up .
( i know i know the school systems taught us to suck it up and accept the beat down )

 

[HaroldL]

Sorry if you took that as rude. I only stated what it sounded like to me.
As for the silver spoon, eh, not so much. I wore hand-me-downs until I graduated from high school, worked my tail off on a farm and learned that hard work pays off. And after 43 years I was able to retire comfortably. So now maybe I could buy a small silver spoon if I wanted - but silver tarnishes and it's extra work to keep it shiny.

IF anyone thinks that $200 for a year (16.67/mo) of maintenance is too much how much are you paying for a cable bill (some packages I've see are over $200/mo.) or for a new iPhone or calling plan or any number of other expenses that you have that are "optional". Gotta keep things in perspective. I think what you get with Alibre, with or without maintenance, is a bargain.

 

[dalbert]

your rudeness was not needed .

complaining is how we customers keep company's in check .

same with any form of life . when your sick you complain to your doctor so he can fix it .

when prices are too high and unfair you have to speak up .
( i know i know the school systems taught us to suck it up and accept the beat down )

I understand that as a hobby user, you may find AD too expensive (heck, I'd like a lamborghini, but it's too expensive for me), and I too hope Alibre finds a better way to tackle hobby and educational markets, but I don't think it's fair to characterize their pricing as unfair. Alibre has to balance their pricing with their need to pay staff and turn a profit; they may simply not be able to make it work if they charge less; I'm sure they've given pricing very careful consideration. Alibre is a small, employee owned company (AFAIK) and it's hard to be a small player up against giants like Autodesk and Dassault who charge *much* more for their products (except for hobby use) and it's a credit to them that they are holding their own.

It's a free country; I made the decision to buy Expert, but if you don't like the price, you don't have to; there are plenty of free or inexpensive choices for hobby use. If you think there's a different pricing model or marketing strategy that might be a win-win for you and Alibre, I expect they'd like to hear it. But simply complaining that their prices are more than you are prepared to pay doesn't seem likely to be productive or win hearts and minds.

@HaroldL, I didn't see a 3-year discounted maintenance option, is that something they still offer? Is it something that crops up once in a while?

 

[HaroldL]

@HaroldL, I didn't see a 3-year discounted maintenance option, is that something they still offer? Is it something that crops up once in a while?

I actually got that in an email from Alibre notifying me that my maintenance was up for renewal. The other option was a payment plan.

 

[bigseb]

The entitlement...

complaining is how we customers keep company's in check .

Alibre doesn't need to be kept in check. No other company makes as much effort to reach out to it's customers and find a solution. They are well within their right to make a profit. Don't like? Move on.

same with any form of life . when your sick you complain to your doctor so he can fix it .

You pay your doctor to 'fix' you, he doesn't do it for free either. Why should Alibre be iny different?

when prices are too high and unfair you have to speak up .
( i know i know the school systems taught us to suck it up and accept the beat down )

How tf are Alibre's prices unfair? They are more than reasonable. Best deal around imo.

 

[bigseb]

I'm not finding Alibre to be buggy at all. It runs like a champ on both of my computers. A 2013 era laptop and 2016 desktop PC, both running Windows 7.

I'm getting along great with Design Pro V23. The 2d drawing and Assembly modules are fantastic. I'm finding both easier to use, and more intuitive than either Inventor or Fusion.

The Maintenance price isn't a big deal to me personally, but I'd love for the price to be competitive with Fusion. Just so I could be confident that Alibre will still exist in a few years.


My practice project for the last week was a quick change lathe toolpost. Kinda a cross between a Multifix and old Drehblitz.

Liking this. A lot. Hope to see some renders in the gallery soon...

 

[Ken226]

hate to say it .. but by looking at your models in the screen shots your definitely not a hobbyist user .
so yes the price should not bug you a bit .

I'll take that as a compliment. I'm 2 years away from retirement in a totally unrelated field. But, I get 2 days off per week to design tools in CAD and manufacture them in my 2 car garage, on my Birmingham lathe, Precision Mathews mill and home-built Grizzly CNC mill. Since I dont make money at it, I consider myself a hobbyist.

I did go to college for engineering technology, which required plenty of drafting and solid modeling classes though. But, I used the education to get into law enforcement. I've never actually worked in the engineering field.

Liking this. A lot. Hope to see some renders in the gallery soon...

Using Design Pro, I don't have a rendering module. I have Simlab Composer Lite, but I'm still learning to use it. I'll see if I can render an image tomorrow