Not clear on the way materials templates work??

[JST]

I see that one can make a material template and get materials to "automatically" be specified via the bip file. At least I think that is how it works.

But there is an issue of names.....

Does one one put a name in the template with which to refer to the material? Or do you have to use the name already existing?

When there are properties associated, does the name refer to everything via the template, or just the type?

Can then one also put in the light sources that way?

If I understand, then one makes this file, with presumably names assigned to "mean what they are". Then somehow that is associated with either the specific bip file, or it is applicable to any bip that comes in.... not totally sure which, but it sounds like the latter.

Both programs have some sort of explanation, but there is nothing that really "connects" them to show how this is actually done. The Keyshot tutorials were slick, but don't look like what I see, so they are of limited use.

Then also, they breezed through connecting the material name with the keyshot properties. And showed selecting the item from the scene image, which isn't workig for me.

 

[JST]

NOTE EDITED IN

Yes, I HAVE been through the tutorials. Problem is, what I see in 5 is not like the tutorial, which is based on 4. Maybe that isn't what makes it different, but it appears different to me. And the manual description seems different from the tutorial also, which again may be due to it being made for version 5.


OK, I think I have the GD end right. You just have to put in a name for material. It's dumb, but that's how it works. So I have put in things like "chrome", "clear glass", "dark glass", light source 60w" etc. No idea if that is appropriate, but it looked right, and it took a while to do, so I hope so.

I don't get it for where the Keyshot end of things comes from. Template file, Ok....I understand you make one.

At that point I get lost.... The manual tells me what to do to accomplish the operation, sort of.... it does not really tell me HOW to do what I need to. The tutorial breezed right through, showing how easy it is... in KS4.... I have KS5, and it doesn't quite look like that.

What the tutorial showed, and what the manual desribes are different, and I cannot correlate them.

You can edit the material in the scene, I can do that fine..... How to get that edited stuff into a saved form so it can be referenced in a template file is not clear.

It's not even clear how the color works.... do I need a different material file for every different shade of glossy paint? there was a quick comment on how to avoid that linkage, which I didn't understand.

Where does the Keyshot name for the file come from?

How do you get the properties you want under a name that can be used? Apparently you need to save it to the library?? They didn't show that in the tutorial, but the manual says it.......

I don't understand how the "save to library" works, because I did it, and apparently nothing at all happened. So I must have left out some essential step or piece of information. I'm not sure if I needed to do that, and I might have just messed up the files that come with Keyshot irretrievably, I have no idea.

Then also, the window for making the template file does not accept text, so ......? In the tutorial it did..... but they had a button for "manual" which seems to be typing....

If it WOULD accept text, I still don't understand where the keyshot material description file name comes from.

As you see, I suffer from a complete lack of an understnding of the workflow here. I read a lot of stuff about it, but I still have no clue.

 

[jhiker]

See if this thread helps.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16206
There is very little manual input in creating a material template in Keyshot.
Bring in an assembly model, either as a BIP file or a STP file. Save it in Keyshot. Open the scene and apply materials to the parts in the scene.
Select 'Window - Material Templates'
Click the '+' button at the bottom left to 'Add template - automatic > Part'
Keyshot will create a new template and number it. Double-click to rename.
Save & Exit.
If you bring in a new model and parts in it have the same names you can apply the newly-created material template to that scene.

 

[JST]

Well, that was just it.....

It did NOT seem to populate the template.... at least not visibly. That was the issue. Template remained blank, but the illustrations seemed to show it being populated automatically. What you say is just what the tutorial video showed (more of a marketing than education tool, I suspect), but it must be way to simple for my convoluted mind, because it won't do it for me yet.

It didn't seem to be doing what it was supposed to, and it also didn't quite look the same as what was shown/described. That makes me suspect I was not doing things right... but then I could be wrong......

 

[DavidJ]

As jhiker points out, the current version of GD is 'behind the times' in regard to the linkage to Keyshot - it's possible there is functionality not yet available to us.

Keyshot 'quick tips' videos show you can link templates to CAD part names or to CAD materials - I suspect the 'names' option may stand a better chance of working, but that is speculation.

 

[JST]

This had better work with materials, though, since trying to make all the names "Keyshot-ready" would be a real slog. And I blew an hour already going through all the parts assigning materials.

Yes, I saw that too. But their source was "maya", which I had never heard of, having gotten off the Autodesk bus years ago. It may have a better linkage, as you say, since all things Autodesk are by definition relevant and cool......

Of course Rhino, which I recall as a barrel-bottom entry CAD, has a full interface with Keyshot.... Makes me want to have a few months at 3DS in charge of strategy and marketing..... I think there would be a few changes. But reality might hit... limited resources (they always are), and the need to allocate them to integrating with 3D printing might cause a delay.

 

[JST]

Do you have to save the various assignments as you do them? Or do they get saved simply by being assigned when you do the automatic assignment?

If so, I didn't see where you can name them.

They seemed to persist for the exact part assigned, in any and all instances, but nothing much populated in the template window... just the word "default" under "source, nothing at all under material. When I saved everything, brought it back in and brought in that template, nothing was changed, so I assume it did not get populated, or else ????

The descriptions show it automatically populated with all sorts of names. I don't see that. Maybe I DO need to name each assignment, but I don't see where. There is just one "name" field, but the "name" field is populated with the part name, do I need to put in a library name for the Keyshot material, or the material name from GD, or do I do anything with that? I expected a "save as" window where I could put in the desired name.

So I gave it a name, and added it to library (or tried to). It does not appear in the library, and other things of same material do not change when "apply to scene" is used. ??????????????????? I chose "material", as they say. I could not use "name", because the names were not assigned with this craziness in mind.

Then also, try as I may, I cannot get "brushed stainless" to look anything like the real thing.... I select "brushed 3D" texture, but it looks lumpy, not brushed. I don't see the nice selection pictures, either. Not like the videos at all. I think I need one of the black and white patterns.... if I can get to them, or have any.

If I use theirs, it looks horribly shiny and unreal.

Then also, since the library materials have surface AND color, it looks like color info from GD is thrown away if you use the library part. So then every part with a particular maerial name would have to be orange, or whatever. If you want some blue, some yellow and some orange, it looks like you may have to have three different materials.

I am still troubled by the fact that what I see is not like the manual or the video tutorials.... gotta be something wrong.

 

[JST]

Well, there is something wrong.....

I carefully selected "material" and NOT "part" when doing the template.

BUT..... IT DIDN'T WORK..... every item in the template has the PART NAME and not the material..... OUCH! That's gonna hurt if I have to select each and every individual part one after the other and clickety-click to select what I want.

I have 203 parts. And the names were NOT made with keywords tailored to Keyshot. If that's how it has to work, I think it would be a lot easier to get back some disk space by just deleting keyshot altogether. It's very very nice. It does exactly what I want to do, and is VERY good at it.

But, the linkage to GD is poor. And it seems to be oriented towards something simple, like the shoes in the example..... only a few parts, a few textures, could be done manually if needed. It is looking like a very expensive luxury in terms of time, what with needing far-ahead planning of 'color strategy" and what looks like incredible complexity for what should be a simple color change.....

Tell me it ain't so..... Better yet, SHOW me HOW it ain't so, or where to get that info.... because I can't find it and everything is pointing to it being "that way".

 

[jhiker]

It ain't so.
Keyshot is known for being fairly simple to use.
Have you checked out the user forum, watched the tutorials and checked out the 'Quick Tips'?

FWIW I always use the 'Parts' option when creating a material template - I don't think I've ever used 'Materials'.

First things first..
Are to able to apply a material to a part, modify it (either with a texture map or colour adjustment) and save it to a library of your choosing?

 

[JST]

I can apply a set of properties to anything in KS, yes. I can get standard materials to apply via a template.

Saving a special material property set to library, I dont know, that's a maybe... I have the save function, but I am not sure it did save.

Problem is materials include color, so all items of one name turn same color. Videos imply that is not locked in, that it can be avoided.

Other problem is that material name is not used, I can only get it to uše part name.

 

[jhiker]

If you've named and saved a material to a library and you're not sure it's there, open the library in Explorer and look for the new name.

All materials do NOT include colour - see pic.

You are aware you can 'copy & paste' and 'unlink materials' are you not?

 

[JST]

You are aware you can 'copy & paste' and 'unlink materials' are you not?

Too bad registration for the KS forum does not work, I'd prefer to ask there, but they'd probably ban me for being an idiot.

A video mentioned the C&P and unlink, but I was not sure what they meant. Didn't seem relevant yet in any case so I have not looked into it. Right now I want the template to use the material name and NOT the part name. It is supposed to work, but has not so far.

As for colors, if I look at a material in the library, it is classified by surface AND COLOR. Hence the confusion.

The attached shows both things.

You see the choice of part or material, with material being selected.... later the part names show up in the template anyway, TOTALLY IGNORING the material names.

And you see the material which has a different individual selection for each surface type and color, implying that if it is in a template, everything will be turned to that color and ONLY that color. I have confirmed this DOES happen, but I cannot be sure it MUST happen. Seems the stupidest and most clumsy way it could possibly have been done.



But the part name was actually used



AND the color over-rode the specified color that came in..... the left wall was light gray in the first picture, but now it is darker gray

 

[jhiker]

I'll review the 'Materials templates' tutorial again and get back to you.

 

[JST]

tell you what... DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD ANY MORE.

Don't bother...... Not that I do not appreciate the effort, but it is not meant to be a big pain for anyone but me. And you may damage a wall if you do that, meaning someone will have to take time to fix it. :mrgreen: SO DO NOT REPLY.

AND NONE OF THIS MATTERS.

the MAIN ISSUE IS YET ANOTHER WAY THAT GD HAS FAILED TO DO WHAT THEY SHOULD.....

I FOUND OUT THAT GD SEEMS NOT TO EXPORT THE MATERIAL NAME... YOUR ONLY CONNECTION IS THE PART NAME, WHICH DOES NOT WORK FOR ME, SO UNLESS MY QUERY TO GD SUPPORT SHOWS HOW TO GET THE MATERIAL NAME TO EXPORT, THE ENTIRE TEMPLATE FILE IDEA COLLAPSES AS UNUSABLE FOR ME.

I HAVE TO SELECT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL PART IN EACH SCENE, EVERY TIME IT IS CHANGED, AND RE-RE-RE-SELECT THE MATERIAL PROPERTIES.

CRAP..............

For your specific questions, the "unlink" is mentioned in 4 places in the manual, as found by search. They all show WAYS to "unlink", but NOT ONE of them says why you might want to "unlink", nor what happens when you DO.... Sounds like it just disconnects the item from the template input so that it can be different from the other parts like it . That's obviously NOT what I want to do, I want it to pull from the template, but NOT have to separate the template items by color. I don't see why color can't be separate from texture, but it seems to be baked-in.

Again, thsi seems to be moot, since GD, in their wisdom, do not seem to have implemented the material name export, thus making it apparently impossible to use templates unless you use part name.

The Keyshot video on templates illustrates using material name, and explains why that is a better way to do it. I've watched it 4 times at least.... The part about material names starts at about 5:15 in the video.... just advance the video until you see the wildly colored shoe.

The copy and paste is thus irrelevant for now, but must be a way of adding "same as except for materials". OK, but of no consequence until this nonsense with the material name is sorted out.

 

[JST]

I got a reply from 3DS support about the part name deal. They confirmed it is like that, and that it would be better if the material was exported in the .bip material field instead of the part name being put there.

Here is what the reply actually said:

"Thank you for contacting 3D System's Geomagic Technical Support. We very much do appreciate you bringing this issue to our attention. You are correct, it appears that exporting the file as a .bip is not including the material name. The material name was originally used only for the BOM, but I can see how it can benefit users who also use Keyshot.

I do have a meeting with our QA and Developers coming up and I will push for this addition. Unfortunately the only tag that Keyshot will use from a Geomagic Design .bip file is the part name. I will push for the material name use in a .bip as I can see how this is a big limitation of using both programs together."