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Optimum Motherboard for WIN-10/11 and Alibre

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
I think the writing is on the wall. Last night my WIN-7 system decided to boot to the black screen and cursor. So far I haven't been able to solve the problem. Could be a virus. Luckily the system still works. Plugging in an older 1TB drive from June2020 still works and then adding the original drive as a Drive E: let's me access all my work. That's now being copied to a backup drive too but it will be a while before it's done.

So. I think it's time to update. I'm currently running an i7-2600K CPU with 16GB ram along with a GTX670 video board and dual monitors.
The CPU and therefore the motherboard is too old for WIN-11. Given that Microsoft will likely pull the rug out of WIN-10 within the next little while it's time to build a new system that can run WIN-11. There was discussion a while ago that some video boards and lots of processor cores might be good for gaming but actually slow down Alibre.

So what's out there now for motherboards and suitable video card that would let me run dual 1080P or better monitors and WIN-11?
 

srjacob

Senior Member
I am using an AsRock X570 Taichi motherboard with a AMD 5950x processorwith 64GB of memory and a 1TB M.2 SSD for a C drive (boot plus applications), and big M.2 SSDs, and an Nvidia Geforce RTX2070 Super. The 5950x requires either liquid cooling or a really big heat sink like the Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4.

The Taichi board was the only one I could find that would allow me to put 3 M.2 SSDs on the motherboard.

I not only do a lot of Alibre, but image processing as well.

I back up everything to a Synology NAS using the Goodsync application. I then back up the Synology to a USB drive every night.

WIndows 10, of course. My wife has WIndows 11 on a laptop, and has lots of trouble with it. I won't go to WIndows 11 any of my machines.

Steve
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
I am using an AsRock X570 Taichi motherboard with a AMD 5950x processorwith 64GB of memory and a 1TB M.2 SSD for a C drive (boot plus applications), and big M.2 SSDs, and an Nvidia Geforce RTX2070 Super. The 5950x requires either liquid cooling or a really big heat sink like the Noctua NH-D15 SE-AM4.

The Taichi board was the only one I could find that would allow me to put 3 M.2 SSDs on the motherboard.

I not only do a lot of Alibre, but image processing as well.

I back up everything to a Synology NAS using the Goodsync application. I then back up the Synology to a USB drive every night.

WIndows 10, of course. My wife has WIndows 11 on a laptop, and has lots of trouble with it. I won't go to WIndows 11 any of my machines.

Steve
That appears more to be a gaming PC with many cores and threads. Didn't someone say a while back that too many cores and threads actually slow down the CAD? https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-9-5950x I think 32 threads was way too many?
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
So here's what's been ordered:

ASUS H770-PLUS D4 w/DDR4-3200 Motherboard
Intel i5-12600K CPU plus Noctua NH-D15S CPU Cooler.
64GB RAM
ASUS Dual NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti OC Edition Graphics Card (PCIe 4.0, 8GB GDDR6X Memory)

Alreay have brand new 2 TB disk drive so won't be going SSD yet.

I'll report if there are any issues.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
So here's what's been ordered:

ASUS H770-PLUS D4 w/DDR4-3200 Motherboard
Intel i5-12600K CPU plus Noctua NH-D15S CPU Cooler.
64GB RAM
ASUS Dual NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti OC Edition Graphics Card (PCIe 4.0, 8GB GDDR6X Memory)

Alreay have brand new 2 TB disk drive so won't be going SSD yet.

I'll report if there are any issues.
So... The only change is this:
I had installed Windows 11 from a USB drive onto the 2TB hard drive running on my older processor that runs WIN-11. What a pig. I'm told that Windows 11 expects SSD for the system drive and does lots of stuff that just kills response with a standard drive. Apparently even Windows 10 is like that but then this HP ZBOOK I'm using has a 500GB SSD so I've never noticed an issue.

Anyway with the crappy response of Windows 11 on a hard drive I decided that I'd splurge on a WD_BLACK 2TB GEN4 (7300 MB/s) SSD. I left the high end graphics board out initially since the CPU and motherboard has graphics. One less thing to worry about if it doesn't work.

And nada.... fast blinking power LED and that was it. I had followed the instructions and put one of the 32GB RAM modules into DIMM_A2 and the other into the DIMM_B2 socket. Well after much fooling around I discovered that neither of the two DIMMs work in the DIMM_Bx sockets. They do work in the two DIMM_Ax sockets and I have 64GB of ram now. ASUS support hasn't got a clue and says the memory isn't on the tested list. Of course they don't have any memory that size on the list and what they have is all up in the 4000 speed even though again the user manual says 3200 is fine. So their list is dumb.

System also didn't show a boot drive even though I had both the m.2 SSD and a BluRay disk R/W drive. A bit more internet search suggested the system won't chose the BluRay if there isn't a disk in it. So booted with the Windows 11 install disk and now it was visible as a boot drive. Away we go.

I won't go into the Big Brother aspects of Microsoft or how much of an intrusion that system (and WIN-10) before is on our lives. It's take a while to get rid of the advertising information and tracking stuff. Installed the fancy graphics card. No problem. Booted and it just worked! Still can't access my file server. It can't even find it.

Then I installed Alibre 25 since there is no way I want Alibre 26 drawings anywhere while my primary system is still WIN-7.

For now I've chosen demo evaluation mode for Alibre25 since I don't want to release licenses a bunch of times. I took one of the 1TB back up drives with Alibre drawings etc and made it a second drive on this system. Gosh a system with 3TB of storage. Who'd of thought? Started up Alibre25. Continued past the evaluation screen and bingo! It's up and about 3 seconds faster than the WIN-7 system and about 1 second faster than the newer HP ZBook with the SSD.

Same with loading an AD_PRT file. A second or so faster than the WIN-7 system. Probably mostly hard drive issues since I have a fancy graphics board in that one too although not with 8GB of RAM.

I haven't tried any big assemblies yet since I can't access the file server but other than load times it seems about the same. Rotating the part etc. All about the same. I'm using an HDMI 1080P screen.

I then installed AlibreCAM 20. Appears to work. Again superficial use at this point in time.

Therefore the only real issue has been the RAM DIMMs and the inability of the motherboard to recognize working memory. I imagine a BIOS upgrade at some point may fix that. Now to install Altium schematic and pcb design software. Embarcadero Delphi and C++. All the other various tools and programs I use for day to day work.

And to figure out what sort of Office suite to use since I will not subscribe to Office365. Just got the Mastercard bill for Amazon Prime and Netflix today. Don't really need yet another subscription bleeding money.

I will report back once the system has been brought up to the point where it could become the main development system. That will take a month or so. Got to let infant mortality first rear it's head if it's going to happen. But at this point, other that a software supplier (Microsoft) dictating how we should think and behave, I think Windows 11 is totally usable for Alibre.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
Network discovery is OFF by default, you may get prompted at some point as to if you want to enable it.
It's there as CORSAIR-2 is visible but the problem is more subtle than that. When you install Windows 11 you are required to give them an email address. Like a fool I gave them my Microsoft email address which is johnd. So then instead of letting me create my own user ID for this workstation it decided to create one named johnd. Not only that the password has to be the same as the one for my Microsoft account. Nice eh? Install Windows 11 and give Microsoft your ID and password into your machine. My network doesn't recognize the user johnd or the Password that I had to use for Microsoft because apparently the one I wanted to use was used once before so now I'm told I'm not allowed to use it.

Now this link tells how to work around this
but it appears Microsoft has already screwed that one up. I ran the Rufus software on the windows iso file and it never did come up with this option like the article suggested.

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There probably is some way of preventing Microsoft from intruding. More research is required. The reality is at the moment with an original (and expensive) DVD from Microsoft with the full Professional Windows 11 installation, you cannot install it without an Ethernet link. And then you cannot go further without a Microsoft ID which then creates a user name that you don't want.
I thought it was my mistake when I first started up WIN-10 on my ZBOOK and ended up with the user name johnd. Now I know it was microsoft intruding. But not as badly as Windows 11 it appears.
 
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DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
It is possible to avoid using Microsoft account - but Microsoft tries very hard to make you do so. I managed to install my Win11 laptop without using Microsoft account - I think I used the dodge of entering a nonsense e-mail address. I did a lot of on-line research before even switching on my new laptop.

I'm no expert but I believe the Pro edition of Win11 is likely to let you have more control, as corporate IT will not want Microsoft accounts.
 

simonb65

Alibre Super User
Still can't access my file server. It can't even find it.
Most 'older' file servers/NAS drives use SMB1 for the browser service ... Win 10 and Win 11 don't support SMB1, so you need to get your file server to use SMB2 or SMB3 (if it supports it! Should do with an update). Failing that, there are hacks to this problem if you do some Googling!

I had this when I upgraded from Win7 to Win10 with my QNAP and Synology NAS boxes!
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
It is possible to avoid using Microsoft account - but Microsoft tries very hard to make you do so. I managed to install my Win11 laptop without using Microsoft account - I think I used the dodge of entering a nonsense e-mail address. I did a lot of on-line research before even switching on my new laptop.

I'm no expert but I believe the Pro edition of Win11 is likely to let you have more control, as corporate IT will not want Microsoft accounts.
Thanks. I did buy the expensive Pro version but I might well have said it's only used for Home. Dumb mistake. Will likely re-install.
I'm a big believer in "Right to Repair". I think that Microsoft has crossed over the line with WIN-10 and even more so with WIN-11. Decades ago the US government would have split them up. At this point they may be "too big to fail" or more exactly "too big to break up"
If it weren't for the fact that of all the CAD systems AlibreCAD is still the one that resonates with the way my mind works (although that's gotten worse over the last few years) I am not sure about my future with Windows.
I use LinuxCNC for the Milling Machine. MACH3 on WIN-XP for the CNC router. And my ELS for the lathe. So far I haven't needed CNC on the lathe. AlibreCAM (Mecsoft reading AD_PRT files) is still the best system out there for me.
I've slowly been working with Lazarus more (Like Object Pascal from Borland) and the source code transfers almost effortlessly between Windows and Linux. But for embedded systems that use Microchip ICD-3/4 debuggers or the P&E debugger for MS9S12 processors there is nothing like it on Linux. One reason why I'm keeping my WIN-7 system intact. It's like my 1939 Delta Band Saw. I walk up to it. Turn it on. Cut wood. Turn it off. Walk away.
This "Enhancing our User Experience" is garbage.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
Most 'older' file servers/NAS drives use SMB1 for the browser service ... Win 10 and Win 11 don't support SMB1, so you need to get your file server to use SMB2 or SMB3 (if it supports it! Should do with an update). Failing that, there are hacks to this problem if you do some Googling!

I had this when I upgraded from Win7 to Win10 with my QNAP and Synology NAS boxes!
I've been using WHS 2003 up till now. It works as long as you have the ability to plug in an ethernet module that has a driver for WIN-XP. So my ASUS laptop, when the hard drive crashed was not recoverable even thought the data files were. My WIN-7 system gets a small card plugged into the bus and I can restore the OS from the last full backup. WIN-10 laptop has files backed up but also like the older ASUS laptop will never be able to be restored. And WIN-11 has special software inside it to prevent the WHS software from being installed. Therefore even if you could plug in a network card compatible with WIN-XP you're hooped.

I do have a Synology Server but as yet haven't figured out how to a) back up the entire system nightly and b) install a fresh clean hard drive in the system and restore it to where it was yesterday after the backup. Everything including software licenses.

In many ways, Linux is better from that perspective. It's easier to create an image of the hard drive as a backup and then restore that. But you have to understand just how WHS 2003 worked to see how brilliant it was. WHS 2011 (I think that was the year) wasn't nearly as good at extending disk space.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
So here's what's been ordered:

ASUS H770-PLUS D4 w/DDR4-3200 Motherboard
Intel i5-12600K CPU plus Noctua NH-D15S CPU Cooler.
64GB RAM
ASUS Dual NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti OC Edition Graphics Card (PCIe 4.0, 8GB GDDR6X Memory)

Alreay have brand new 2 TB disk drive so won't be going SSD yet.

I'll report if there are any issues.
Update time:
Used two 32GB DIMMs of the DDR4 variety from CORSAIR. Didn't work in the DIMM_A + DIMM_B slot as recommended by the motherboard manual. System wouldn't boot. Would boot with 32GB in the DIMM_A2 slot. Either worked. Also it turns worked as single channel ram with DIMM_A1 and A2 filled. Continued on with WIN-10 installation but now onto a 2TB Western Digital Black SSD M.2 variety.

Ignored memory issue for now and installed all currently used software etc and started testing. Alibre runs fine with either the stock video on the motherboard/processor combination although testing showed that when rotating that large assembly GPU usage time went up to 97%. Didn't really notice on screen issues. Changed to different brand of memory also listed as suitable for this motherboard and it appeared to work in the A2 B2 DIMM slots. Although the system became flaky after a while and finally again wouldn't boot.

Took a step back and removed the Noctua cooler and installed a smaller Alpine 17 LP Intel CPU Cooler for LGA1700. Under full stress test processor reaches 85C compared to 60C with the big cooler. No difference in Alibre behavior. Can't really tell how the Big Nividea board is stress but likely far less than the on board video. And after removing and installing processor and then the new smaller heatsink the memory now worked properly in the A2 B2 slots. I then went back to the Noctua but this time tightened the mounting nuts finger tight rather than with the screw driver. Memory also worked properly now.

I now have what appears to be a stable system, WIN-10 Pro with no linkage to Microsoft. One has to disconnect network cable and then run command to trash a running task during installation. Then it comes up and asks for a real user ID rather than the call home email address.

I'm still running Alibre 25 in demo mode on the new system as I already have a copy on the old WIN-7 workstation and the HP ZBook. I'm not sure I'm allowed 3 copies so there's only minimal testing for Alibre but either the CPU board with video or the new NVIDIA which has 1 HDMI and 3 DisplayPort outputs work well.

There's still a lot of work to do to bring all the projects folders over to it and make sure drivers etc are installed. A few other details before I make this the main development system. License transfers etc.

At the moment I would recommend this motherboard with an SSD, i5-12600K with 6 cores and either stock video or a fancy one. I'd say be careful with CPU cooling installation. The feeling is that it's easy to 'warp' the motherboard in such a way that the CPU doesn't make good contact in the socket and then you get memory issues with the two inner DIMM sockets. Appears I'm not the only one who has had this issue.

After this system has been running for a month or two I'll make it the main workstation and move the Alibre license over.
 
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simonb65

Alibre Super User
I do have a Synology Server but as yet haven't figured out how to a) back up the entire system nightly and b) install a fresh clean hard drive in the system and restore it to where it was yesterday after the backup. Everything including software licenses.
Easiest way is to run atleast 2 discs in RAID. To replace or upgrade drives, just pull one and replace it and let RAID replicate, build and copy the new disc.

For backup, I use the built in backup to replicate the NAS to another NAS (again with RAID for redundancy. The second NAS is located at a separate physical location in case of fire/flood, etc at one of them. You can backup a NAS to a local external HDD to make things simpler ... but not necessarily as robust!
 
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