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Toolbar icons in V26 are way too big (Fixed)

tgarson

Member
Admin Edit: System Options -> Display -> General : Toolbar Icon Size to change the size of icons.

Toolbar icons in V26 are way too big.
This makes using Alibre much less convenient for me. Perhaps if I was an every day "power" user of Alibre I wouldn't even use the icons, living on the command line. I'm not and I don't. I need the smaller icons that persisted through V25 restored. PLEASE!!!!!
Certainly, I would love to have the ability to adjust the sizes those icons to my taste, but just getting them back to the way they were would boost my productivity..
 
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DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
If you really mean toolbar icons size, there are adjusted in System Options -> Display -> General : Toolbar Icon Size.
 
The "Small" toolbar icons in v26 are still too big! The v26 icons are about 20 - 25% bigger than those in v25. I for one, do not like it when faceless nameless programmers take it upon thenselves to wreck the investment in time and money that I have put into a piece of software without notice, or a chance to try and mitigate the damage, and seemingly without any thought for their customers! Do I sound a trifle irritated? I certainly hope so! Dave
 

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
Did you participate in the Beta testing? That would have been a good time to test features that are important to you to see the impact any changes would have on your installation and use of the program.

Just sayin'.
 
Hi Harold! Thanks for the tip. I bought v2019 and used it a lot at first. but then I didn't touch it for 2 - 3 years. Last November I upgraded and have been using v25. Just last week I finally learned how to get v26 running under Windows 7. As I mentioned in a post on the Using Alibre Design topic, I was surprised that the small icons on v26 are about 20% bigger than the v25 icons. This is the first time that I have ever tried to use a user forum, so I'm not up to speed yet. One of the reasons for buying Alibre in the first place was that no annual maintenance fee is required. And upgrading every three or four years is probably all that I will ever do. However, I will keep your suggestion regarding Beta testing in mind! Regards, Dave
 
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jcdammeyer

Senior Member
The "Small" toolbar icons in v26 are still too big! The v26 icons are about 20 - 25% bigger than those in v25. I for one, do not like it when faceless nameless programmers take it upon thenselves to wreck the investment in time and money that I have put into a piece of software without notice, or a chance to try and mitigate the damage, and seemingly without any thought for their customers! Do I sound a trifle irritated? I certainly hope so! Dave
I noticed that the other day too. Another reason along with the WIN-7 for my main development system that I'm still running Alibre25. I can't change or lose customers due to code that won't run on WIN-10. I keep a WIN-XP system around for the same reason.

The top icons appera to be a tiny bit bigger and has that stupid black background with white text for the menu. The icons on the RHS take up screen space and are just plain annoying.
AlibreV25V26.jpg
The need to change for changes sake and justify the yearly support is quite disappointing.
Just imagine if Microsoft changed their OS once per year so that .EXE programs compiled on a WIN-8 system wouldn't run on a WIN-7 system. That all your customers and users were required to update the OS to WIN-10 as soon as you upgraded to WIN-10. Some would call that equivalent to ransomware. The only winner is Microsoft.
The continuous change in AD_PRT files from version to version is very much like that. We can export STP files in different versions as AP 203, AP 214 and AP 242. But if I create a new part in Alibre26 to distribute to my friends they must first pay the ransom for Alibre26 if I upgrade from Alibre25 or give them a crappy STP file. It's not even like Fusion360 or other CAD systems can import AD_PRT files directly. Not even on their import list.
 

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
I haven't used tool bars since the ribbon became available. For me, the tool bars never seemed to stay where I placed them and would move if I ever resized the workspace. I have been pretty happy with the ribbon and although some of the icons may be a bit on the small side, at least it doesn't move around like the tool bars did.

I recall that @Max had a lengthy explanation for the changes to the ribbon, graphics, and other UI changes and it wasn't to justify yearly support. I can't find it now but if you search the forum you may be able to find it. Or maybe he will reply here.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
I haven't used tool bars since the ribbon became available. For me, the tool bars never seemed to stay where I placed them and would move if I ever resized the workspace. I have been pretty happy with the ribbon and although some of the icons may be a bit on the small side, at least it doesn't move around like the tool bars did.

I recall that @Max had a lengthy explanation for the changes to the ribbon, graphics, and other UI changes and it wasn't to justify yearly support. I can't find it now but if you search the forum you may be able to find it. Or maybe he will reply here.
Can't stand the ribbons. One of the reasons over a decade ago that I chose Alibre over some of the other CAD systems is the user interface 'clicked' with me. I anchor the tool bars to the sides. Once I figured that out it was comfortable. Many of the changes in Windows and the resulting changes in applications to "Improve my user experience" are garbage IMHO.

As I age and my eyeglass prescription changes then, like in photography, I find that a small aperture increases depth of field. A black screen with white print makes the print harder to read because the iris opens up. Scale the screen up so the print is bigger and now any of the icons and ribbons are huge.

In either case, Alibre 26 is a step backwards from a screen real-estate perspective. The issue with WIN-7 is another. When you do a binary examination of a simple AD_PRT file created in Alibre 25 or 26 there is garbage in the text part of the file. Not always but could explain why sometimes drawings just crash with null pointer errors.
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
The need to change for changes sake and justify the yearly support is quite disappointing.
Not for changes sake at all.

A key software component used behind the user interface became unsupported - so over time many aspects of the UI are being migrated to an alternative component, which is actively developed. These UI updates have to happen if Alibre is to remain usable on modern systems. Hopefully some improvements can be incorporated at the same time (e.g. the new colour blind options).

Win7: has been dead for a long time now, and Microsoft warns it is a security risk - Alibre has to develop & test on Win10 & Win11. v25 wasn't officially supported on Win7 (it just happened that it worked on Win7).
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
And that's how I was bitten and am now at bit peeved. Started testing and drawing with the new 'enhanced' V25. Then discovered that all that work was now wasted and would have to be redone on the older version that was officially supported on WIN-7. Along with my AlibreCAD 2020. No one pays me to redo work because file formats for the AD_PRT files were changed.

I can use my WIN-7 system and RAD Studio 10.3 to still create programs that run on WIN-XP. I can use my WIN-10 system and RAD Studio 10.4 (won't run on WIN-7) to create applications that run on WIN-XP.

In short, I realize WIN-7 is out of date as is WIN-XP. But in the process of all these different development environments and developers using the latest and greatest systems and software designed to "enhance a user's experience" the costs to the customers run into the billions with respect to lost productivity and trashing perfectly good hardware because the latest and greatest won't run on it.

A lot of people aren't interested in spending thousands of dollars to enhance their user experience and trash hardware and software that's worked perfectly fine for years.

The attached screen shots show it is possible to create programs that can run on older systems. I can't even install WIN-11 on my main workstation because the 64 bit processor is too old (bought in 2009). I could update to WIN-10 but I wonder how much will break and how many hours I will spend with no real advantage other than running Alibre26 instead of Alibre 25.

My real grumble is the constant change of file formats in AD_PRT files with no backwards compatibility. Just upwards. And the AD_PRT files in text section of Alibre26 are still a bit strange in the same way they are in Alibre25.
1677092665129.png

Sorry for grumbling. Haven't changed to other CAD software yet since much of it like Fusion360 is way worse from my view of the user interface.
 

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bolsover

Senior Member
And that's how I was bitten and am now at bit peeved. Started testing and drawing with the new 'enhanced' V25. Then discovered that all that work was now wasted and would have to be redone on the older version that was officially supported on WIN-7. Along with my AlibreCAD 2020. No one pays me to redo work because file formats for the AD_PRT files were changed.

I can use my WIN-7 system and RAD Studio 10.3 to still create programs that run on WIN-XP. I can use my WIN-10 system and RAD Studio 10.4 (won't run on WIN-7) to create applications that run on WIN-XP.

In short, I realize WIN-7 is out of date as is WIN-XP. But in the process of all these different development environments and developers using the latest and greatest systems and software designed to "enhance a user's experience" the costs to the customers run into the billions with respect to lost productivity and trashing perfectly good hardware because the latest and greatest won't run on it.

A lot of people aren't interested in spending thousands of dollars to enhance their user experience and trash hardware and software that's worked perfectly fine for years.

The attached screen shots show it is possible to create programs that can run on older systems. I can't even install WIN-11 on my main workstation because the 64 bit processor is too old (bought in 2009). I could update to WIN-10 but I wonder how much will break and how many hours I will spend with no real advantage other than running Alibre26 instead of Alibre 25.

My real grumble is the constant change of file formats in AD_PRT files with no backwards compatibility. Just upwards. And the AD_PRT files in text section of Alibre26 are still a bit strange in the same way they are in Alibre25.
View attachment 38590

Sorry for grumbling. Haven't changed to other CAD software yet since much of it like Fusion360 is way worse from my view of the user interface.
If you do decide to update, I'd strongly suggest you go straight to Win 11 and bypass Win 10 altogether. I have Win 11 running on a couple of old PC's that don't meet Microsoft min specs. To date, I have had zero problems One of the machines has a Celeron J1900 processor - works just fine.
In a previous lifetime, I wrote software for a living. whenever customers complained about using out of date OS I usually told then if they didn't update and move with the times, their customers would probably move supplier. That said, I recognise it is not always possible to abandon legacy systems and for that reason I also used to maintain old OS's (but as virtual machines).
 

Max

Administrator
Staff member
I can use my WIN-7 system and RAD Studio 10.3 to still create programs that run on WIN-XP. I can use my WIN-10 system and RAD Studio 10.4 (won't run on WIN-7) to create applications that run on WIN-XP.

In short, I realize WIN-7 is out of date as is WIN-XP. But in the process of all these different development environments and developers using the latest and greatest systems and software designed to "enhance a user's experience" the costs to the customers run into the billions with respect to lost productivity and trashing perfectly good hardware because the latest and greatest won't run on it.

With respect, I think this misses the mark a bit. What is the alternative? Not use modern development environments? Not take advantage of more performant paradigms, more performant hardware (made in the last 5 years), UI/UX tools with better quality of life? To what end - .45% of OSs today are Windows XP. 9.5% are Windows 7. It may make sense for you, with your customer base, to maintain products on those systems, but our customer base by and large does not use those systems. Should we hold everyone else back to make 10% of potential users happy? Those types of users, incidentally, tend to have the most problems as well, since they use deprecated hardware and very old OSs - their machines have 4gb of RAM, often times. Just very little of it makes sense in 2023.

Should you have to buy a new machine every year? Of course not. Should you expect that a 13 year old machine and/or OS is going to be able to run every modern program, even if you consider it to be "perfectly good"? Of course not. There has to be a balance. We believe sticking roughly with Microsoft's own sunsetting approach, which is quite generous, is a good middle ground for us as a company. When they stop supporting their own products, we do too.
 
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jcdammeyer

Senior Member
With respect, I think this misses the mark a bit. What is the alternative? Not use modern development environments? Not take advantage of more performant paradigms, more performant hardware (made in the last 5 years), UI/UX tools with better quality of life? To what end - .45% of OSs today are Windows XP. 9.5% are Windows 7. It may make sense for you, with your customer base, to maintain products on those systems, but our customer base by and large does not use those systems. Should we hold everyone else back to make 10% of potential users happy? Those types of users, incidentally, tend to have the most problems as well, since they use deprecated hardware and very old OSs - their machines have 4gb of RAM, often times. Just very little of it makes sense in 2023.

Should you have to buy a new machine every year? Of course not. Should you expect that a 13 year old machine and/or OS is going to be able to run every modern program, even if you consider it to be "perfectly good"? Of course not. There has to be a balance. We believe sticking roughly with Microsoft's own sunsetting approach, which is quite generous, is a good middle ground for us as a company. When they stop supporting their own products, we do too.
Sorry. Didn't mean to touch a nerve. My point was that even though Microsoft is famous for changing for change sake that I can write a program on WIN-10 that can create an EXE file that runs on WIN-XP speaks to the respect for their customer base that they don't change the EXE format and version with every revision like Alibre does with the AD_PRT files.
The difference I guess is that likely millions of users would complain and therefore they just can't do that. Unlike Apple that controls both the hardware and the software.
Small user base for Alibre and a change in file format that says if you don't update by paying support fees every year a AD_PRT file created by Alibre26 won't load on Alibre25. That's a form of ransomware even though you may not think so.

What I'm sure you want to say but likely would come across as rude is: "Then just don't buy support and stay with the old version! We're making enough off our existing customer base who don't complain." Use STEP files from people from newer users.

And BTW, when I post screen shots of my latest play project (package file too big to attach) I brag about what can be done with Alibre. I've even convinced people to buy your product over Fusion360. But I'm not a completely happy customer. And, yeah... I know. No one cares.

1677102336475.png
 

simonb65

Alibre Super User
My point was that even though Microsoft is famous for changing for change sake that I can write a program on WIN-10 that can create an EXE file that runs on WIN-XP speaks to the respect for their customer base that they don't change the EXE format and version with every revision like Alibre does with the AD_PRT files.
The format of .exe files hasn't changed since windows was invented, but the difference is that Microsoft spend millions in either creating compatibility libraries, or you'll usually find the windows system directory is full of legacy .dlls that old .exe are linked to/built against, in order to make things backward compatible, something I'm 100% certain the Alibre team does not have!

As a software developer myself, that writes applications for Windows, the work to support legacy .exe applications is mostly done by Microsoft, but you still have to adapt and move on if you want it it run on newer OS's. i.e. where user data is stored, UI, memory management, etc.

But all that is just to make the application .exe run. Application data and it's structure/format is a separate thing ...

The file formats of data files (which is all the AD_PRT file is) is no different than Word or Excel files. It contains data that uses the latest features of the applications and in the case of Word and Excel you loose formatting styles, etc if you want to export as an older version. That's perfectly acceptable when the features are not critical to the data structure and are just an additive subset. This is the sole reason why file formats generally moved away from binary (specific data layout in the files) to xml formats. With xml, the application that loads in the data only needs to read the portions it can deal with and ignore the newer feature data sets.

In the case of Alibre, ALL features form part of a mathematical pipeline (just like the Design Explorer depicts), If you take away a newer feature to export to an older version, that pipeline breaks ... it doesn't just mean missing a colour or something, it means missing an entire geometry manipulation step! i.e. If you export v26 as a v23 part, what happens to the fastener constraints data? What happens to the extrude different direction, different lengths data? If you just throw that feature data away, the part just won't evaluate.

No application is perfect, but sometimes you just need to move on. I was on Win7 until 2 years ago (absolutely loved Win7). Most of my good 'ole tools still run on Win10 though, using Windows Compatibility mode, not because I want to, but because for the sake of newer features and, in particular, security and stability support.

Just be lucky your not running productivity tools on an Apple ... won't go there, but lets just say that my outlay on Apple hardware and OS's just to keep ONE legacy Apple application running (and updated) since 2006 is way more than I've ever spent on all my Windows products combined!
 
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DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
Unexpected NUL characters in a file can be a result of power disturbance whilst Windows is saving.

Not saying that is the case here, it's more obvious when the entire file content gets replaced with NUL characters.
 

jcdammeyer

Senior Member
Actually not here. I first created a simple square and extruded it in Alibre 25. Saved the part. Then did the same in Alibre 26. Side by side compare in Codewrite Editor. Although the parts were identical in size and extrusions the internals of the part file were dramatically different due to whatever weird stuff is done in their data structures between versions. But both had one of the ASCII text sections 'damaged' by garbage characters. The PC is on a UPS. I don't think this is a computer problem.
On my previous posting I included the package holding the Alibre 26 drawing. I'm going to guess this is a problem that has been around for a long time and really hard to find. But it does look like a buffer overflow type of fault.
 

simonb65

Alibre Super User
But it does look like a buffer overflow type of fault.
In my 40 years of programming, that's one of the biggest causes of instability and corruption in any application!

But both had one of the ASCII text sections 'damaged' by garbage characters.
I questioned that in a post way back, but it appears that they look like 'block' headers. They do shift in the file if you add/delete geometry, but always seem to be a fixed distance from the start of the file if you look at the file as a binary file and not raw text!

Saying that, the user profile file gets corrupted every now and then, so in my opinion, there is a gremlin or two in there!
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
The Alibre files combine multiple data streams in a single file, so there may well be items in there to do with managing the separate streams.
 
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