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Using special sketch figures?

Stuart

Senior Member
When you project to sketch, a sketch that contains special sketch figures like obround a rounded rectangle, it won't let you use maintain association. Why? What keeps those from being able to follow the source? The projection itself works fine.

Also, you can't copy / paste them either, even on the same sketch. Why would that be not allowed?
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
The 'Shapes' tools in general were developed in co-operation with a third party sheet metal specialist, they were intended for things like punching holes in sheet metal parts. There have some unusual behaviour compared to ordinary sketch figures.

The shape tools have additional underlying properties for the pattern capability - I suspect (but can't be sure) this is why they don't behave like standard sketch figures.
 

NateLiquidGravity

Alibre Super User
I had a need to copy sketches with Shapes and Text, so I wrote an AlibreScript to create a copy of a sketch totally exploded which you might find helpful.

In writing this I had to dig thru and use only what was available in the API. Shapes and Text could be queried but not created by the API. But Alibre developers should have no such limitations, so I'm betting the existing functions like copy were just not updated to include the (then new) functionality of Shapes and Text.
 

jfleming

Alibre Super User
I find the shapes tools to be cumbersome to use so I just avoid them. My recommendation is to sketch the shapes and constrain them yourself. Takes longer but saves some headaches.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
I find the shapes tools to be cumbersome to use so I just avoid them. My recommendation is to sketch the shapes and constrain them yourself. Takes longer but saves some headaches.
Too often the answer/response is "I find it too cumbersome, so I avoid using it." This is why I wish Alibre would do a release concentrating on improving (fixing in some cases) what's already there. Alibre has so much capability on the surface, but it's so frustrated when you try to do something that should obviously work and it doesn't.

I'm making a panel that has about 100 obround slots for ventilation. I could do a single slot then pattern the extrusion, but what made using the special shapes so nice was that I could easily center the whole set with just a couple of equal length reference lines rather than having to come up with the equations to dimensionally place the "key" slot.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
I had a need to copy sketches with Shapes and Text, so I wrote an AlibreScript to create a copy of a sketch totally exploded which you might find helpful.

In writing this I had to dig thru and use only what was available in the API. Shapes and Text could be queried but not created by the API. But Alibre developers should have no such limitations, so I'm betting the existing functions like copy were just not updated to include the (then new) functionality of Shapes and Text.
Thanks Nate. I'll keep this mind. Isn't this going to be similar to exploding text where you lose the ability to edit the shape/pattern? That's what I want to avoid.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
The 'Shapes' tools in general were developed in co-operation with a third party sheet metal specialist, they were intended for things like punching holes in sheet metal parts. There have some unusual behaviour compared to ordinary sketch figures.

The shape tools have additional underlying properties for the pattern capability - I suspect (but can't be sure) this is why they don't behave like standard sketch figures.
David, please enter an issue to look into this weakness. Since the figure and pattern can be projected, it seems keeping a reference to the source (maintain association) shouldn't be too difficult to implement.
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
Stuart, feel free to submit a support ticket with more details of exactly what it is you hope to see.

Do you want your 'copy' to follow the same data that defines the source? I'm guessing so, or you'd just insert another instance of the shape. What would change? Anchor point used (but then it wouldn't be a copy), position presumably?

You can already insert multiple instances of the shape, and the shape dialogue will even remember settings between uses (in same sketch edit session).

What circumstances would you need this to be available for? I know this sounds simple on the face of it, but you've mentioned project to sketch and also copy/paste (which currently isn't enabled for Shapes).
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Here's the use case. In the attached part:

1) Look at the "Thin Panel" sketch. The clearance circle needs to be aligned with the double D round shape. As with the other 2 openings on the sketch, I want to project a reference sketch to use for alignement. However, since the double D can't have maintain association, I have to reapply the same dimensioning used on the original double D sketch.

2) On the "Fan Hole Pattern", I would like to use a Round Pattern figure to easily position the holes, but I have the same problem with the project to sketch later when using the fan holes to align the obround vents in the "Fan Vent Slots" sketch. I would also like to copy paste one fan hole pattern and paste it for the second fan hole pattern. Then a single fan spacing dimension would align the 2 sets of fan holes.

It's not that I can't accomplish the same end result, it's that it would be so much easier, and less prone to errors later on with edits, if they could be referenced with maintain association.
 

Attachments

  • Front Panel.AD_PKG
    604.7 KB · Views: 4

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
1) - Why project reference sketch? Just make circle concentric with arc edge of the existing cut-out. Much simpler.

2) - Similar technique, to 1 though I had to change a feature order.
 

Attachments

  • Front Panel (Alt).AD_PKG
    568 KB · Views: 1

simonb65

Alibre Super User
Just my 2c, would "Catalog Features" be useful in this instance? ... That's what I would use instead of drawing or copying geometry each time as these look like panel/component cut-outs that would be used over and over on multiple projects.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
For #1
1) - Why project reference sketch? Just make circle concentric with arc edge of the existing cut-out. Much simpler.

2) - Similar technique, to 1 though I had to change a feature order.
Those are workarounds, which I've always found, but why does it always have to be a workaround. I'm trying to understand why maintain association can't be used in the first place.

There's virtually nothing that can't be done if you do enough steps, but software like Alibre is supposed to be about making it easier, not just possible.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Just my 2c, would "Catalog Features" be useful in this instance? ... That's what I would use instead of drawing or copying geometry each time as these look like panel/component cut-outs that would be used over and over on multiple projects.
This is the first time I've used any of these cutout shapes, so I hadn't even thought about a catalog feature (yet).
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Just my 2c, would "Catalog Features" be useful in this instance? ... That's what I would use instead of drawing or copying geometry each time as these look like panel/component cut-outs that would be used over and over on multiple projects.
Am I missing something? I can't select a feature or sketch that uses a special shape to save to a catalog. For instance, the Double D hole can't be selected??
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
Stuart, you call them workarounds, I find them faster and more intuitive than what you want to do. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.

My methods do take less steps. Making the circle concentric with the edge of the hole doesn't even need project to sketch, just a single sketch constraint.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
I decided to try and make catalog features. Here's all the problems simply because a catalog feature can't have a special shape.

1) The double D connector has to be drawn with lines and arcs.
2) The obround vent holes have to be drawn with lines and arcs. You can only do one vent hole, or pattern in the sketch losing the edit ability.
3) The fan mount holes can't use a hole pattern, they have to be sketched separately.

"The Catalog Feature tool is used to reuse operations and sketches at different locations on a single model or in different models. The operation or sketch is stored as a workspace, giving he ability to open a catalog workspace as an independent model file to tweak operations."

Where in that description would I learn that I can't use those shapes? Again, something you'd expect to work doesn't... so frustrating.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Just my 2c, would "Catalog Features" be useful in this instance? ... That's what I would use instead of drawing or copying geometry each time as these look like panel/component cut-outs that would be used over and over on multiple projects.
Simon, I'm trying to use the catalog feature. I made one for the USB cutout. Before I go further, how would you positon the 3 connectors (as catalog features) and dynamically space them based on the panel height?
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Stuart, you call them workarounds, I find them faster and more intuitive than what you want to do. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.

My methods do take less steps. Making the circle concentric with the edge of the hole doesn't even need project to sketch, just a single sketch constraint.
I prefer to align by the center point as a reference so that I can change the underlying shape or the relief shape and not have it break. My projects are very iterative. I tweak the design quite a bit as I see how it comes together.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
What is wrong with this example? In the part file, I save to the catalog the Clearance sketch.

I create a new part, insert that catalog feature, but the 40mm outer dimension isn't included??
 

Attachments

  • Panel Mount Ethernet Clearance.AD_PCF
    52.5 KB · Views: 0
  • Panel Mount Ethernet.AD_PRT
    261.5 KB · Views: 0

NateLiquidGravity

Alibre Super User
Thanks Nate. I'll keep this mind. Isn't this going to be similar to exploding text where you lose the ability to edit the shape/pattern? That's what I want to avoid.
I understand and agree but sometimes you need to explode a pattern to be able to remove/alter only some sections of it.
 
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