Email message about legacy product?

[dammerel]

Ethically, one full version if the user is using the license for more than just garage projects.

I think we are getting confessed, why call it "hobby" just a low-cost version, limit components in assembly would be fine
End user agreement can reflect what can be done
Andrew

 

[swertel]

If Alibre is looking for a tiered product structure, you are right. That is different than a Hobby or Student version of commercial software.

In that case, features should be the differentiating factor.

 

[mstevens]

Ok the issue here is how does a company offer software to the non-professional? Well there are some questions to be answered; a few are:

1. What are the advantages to make an offering to the non-professionals?
2. Is the goal to eventually get the non-professionals to purchase full versions?
3. What amount of resources should be devoted to this program?
4. Can the app be easily diluted?

If the goal is world dominance, then of course the goal would be to get a copy of the software in everyone's hands. Example: Linux dominates the server arena now but it is FREE so methods of profit making are different.

There is the paradigm that "If I get students started on my software they will continue to use it and they will convert others and when they are done with school, they will move to the pro version." This is a very valid argument.

Hobbyist on the other hand... well they are "grown up" and for them "it" is a hobby, so those people are less likely to "graduate" and move up to the professional version, particularly if there is a significant price difference. Sure there ate some that turn their hobby into a profession; but I do not believe it is the norm.

Crippling software is easy if it is say like EDA software where one could limit the pin count. I don't think it is so easy in the 3d modeling space. There has been talk of limiting to STEP and STL. Well, as already suggested those are the most commonly used formats ...So to limit to only those would really not be limiting would it?

I think Robert McNeel & Associates has gotten it right with Rhino for students; they offer a discount for students/education and it can be use for education or industry (No limits). Once a student graduates then they can upgrade to the professional version for only the upgrade in price. Personally that is how I got my copy of Rhino and I will continue to support them as they supported me when I had academic status. I think they do ok financially as a company.

Resources are necessary to support the crippled versions of the software. Will enough money be made from the crippled versions to justify the supporting resources necessary.

I understand the arguments about making the hobby files incompatible with the pro version. This message is getting long so I will just respond by saying that is how PTC does it.

These were just some ideas for thought.

 

[bigseb]

There is the paradigm that "If I get students started on my software they will continue to use it and they will convert others and when they are done with school, they will move to the pro version." This is a very valid argument.

I disagree with this. The bottom line in business is money. What software you use in school/college really doesn't play a role. All that matters is strartup cost, maintenance cost and how fast/easily it gets the job done. As my boss says' "We're not here to make moulds, we're here to make a profit." That's the bottom line. Some industries are different where they have to use Catia, for example, for PLM purposes. But even then most downline engineering is done using different software and then you're back to what the most efficient and cost-effective way of doing this.

 

[bigseb]

I think Robert McNeel & Associates has gotten it right with Rhino for students; they offer a discount for students/education and it can be use for education or industry (No limits). Once a student graduates then they can upgrade to the professional version for only the upgrade in price. Personally that is how I got my copy of Rhino and I will continue to support them as they supported me when I had academic status. I think they do ok financially as a company.

Firstly I think Rhino is great software. I haven't used it in years but I cut my teeth on Rhino so it has a special place for me.

That said you can't really compare Rhino to Alibre. They are two totally different packages that serve two totally different purposes. One is a nurbs surface modeller, the other a parametric solid modeller; one is for complex product design, the other an MCAD package that includes sheet metal, assemblies, drawings, BOMs and so on. There is a certain overlap capability in that you could design an internal combustion engine in Rhino and you could design jewellery in Alibre but that's not really what they are suited for.

My point is: A student studying jewellery design is likely to keep on using Rhino. A student studying engineering (and using Autodesk in college) will most likely be moved to something else later on.

 

[mstevens]

Firstly I think Rhino is great software. I haven't used it in years but I cut my teeth on Rhino so it has a special place for me.

That said you can't really compare Rhino to Alibre.

The comparison is not on the capabilities of the two. The comparison is on the pricing model, how software companies "value" their product. In this domain, all "software", I believe, can be compare. Sorta like the discussion of subscription, vs upgrade vs SAAS.

 

[mstevens]

My point is: A student studying jewellery design is likely to keep on using Rhino. A student studying engineering (and using Autodesk in college) will most likely be moved to something else later on.

That is making the assumption that the student goes to work for a company and that company already has their standards in place. But... say that same student loved Autodesk; and then moved on to own their own company or moved into a management/decision making position. There is a chance due to their affinity to Autodesk, they make the decision to move back to Autodesk. This is how many companies have already determined their standards.

Case in point there are many FREE products that can do what MS Word does. What do you think is the industry standard? I am a MS fanboy!!! I make my wife greet our guests at our home with, "We love Microsoft here, welcome to our home! " Mainly because she does not like Microsoft so much <grin>... Anyway, if I were to write an IEEE paper, do you think I would use MS Word or LaTex? Practically every office in America has standardize on Microsoft Word for word processing. If you look back over history that comes from the fact that MS Word was used in schools, and at Universities.

LaTex was the answer...

 

[bigseb]

The comparison is not on the capabilities of the two. The comparison is on the pricing model, how software companies "value" their product. In this domain, all "software", I believe, can be compare. Sorta like the discussion of subscription, vs upgrade vs SAAS.

But the 'value' of the product is tied to its capabilities (mostly).

 

[bigseb]

T.But... say that same student loved Autodesk; and then moved on to own their own company or moved into a management/decision making position. There is a chance due to their affinity to Autodesk, they make the decision to move back to Autodesk. This is how many companies have already determined their standards..

No-one loves Autodesk. Some they do, usually because a) they don't know any better or b) they aren't footing the bill.

Except architects, They just can't get enough of AutCAD.

 

[bigseb]

Case in point there are many FREE products that can do what MS Word does. What do you think is the industry standard? I am a MS fanboy!!! I make my wife greet our guests at our home with, "We love Microsoft here, welcome to our home! " Mainly because she does not like Microsoft so much <grin>... Anyway, if I were to write an IEEE paper, do you think I would use MS Word or LaTex? Practically every office in America has standardize on Microsoft Word for word processing. If you look back over history that comes from the fact that MS Word was used in schools, and at Universities.

LaTex was the answer...

Again, can't really compare.

Firstly office admin is just not as specialized as CAD. Letter writing and spreadsheets vs high-end engineering? Puh-leez. Creating a spreadsheet in Excel or LibreCalc is a distinction without a difference. But CAD? Different beast entirely.

Secondly, MSs choice to go subscription was not popular by a long shot, just as subscription CAD was a bad move for Autodesk (I know I'm picking on Autodesk, that's just my thing). CAD software that offer a once off (lifetime fee) with yearly upgrades as an optional extra are winning here by miles.

Thirdly just because MS is pumped down everyone's throat doesn't mean business owners don't ask serious questions about the product quality. Look at the fiasco that is Windoes 10. Most high end companies won't use it due to it security issues and maintenance hassles. MS has already stated it wants to go subscription in the future. Good idea? Don't think that companies are seriously exploring Linux as an alternative.

I use notepad, media player, Calculator, etc because some things just don't matter. But those that do I get very fussy about and choose wisely. These decisions have never been based on the fact I used it at school.

 

[mstevens]

But the 'value' of the product is tied to its capabilities (mostly).

So let me see if I can understand what you are saying. Are you saying that because Rhino and Alibre are different types of software that Alibre could never have the same type of pricing structure for students/academics and hobbyists?

 

[bigseb]

Old Alibre and Geomagic both had a hobby version for little money but it was massively stripped down compared to the top-level version. What you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is to have a full version available for cheap for students, like Rhino does. The potential for abuse here is great for Alibre, hence a stripped down version. They are two different concepts entirely (hobby vs student). So yes, the capabilities are tied in to the value.

 

[JL82]

Drawings are important in professional use. Is it possible to put text "not for commerical use" to drawing on Hobby version?

 

[aptivaboy]

Home hobbyist here. I design aftermarket and some actual sellable models for the scale model crowd, mostly garage kit type stuff, sold via Shapeways. Let me try to give you my home hobbyist perspective. For myself, at least, interoperability is the major issue. We're often trading CAD files between each other, and with several folks all using different CAD programs, that becomes an issue! We don't need the sheet metal features, for example. We do need better import/export capabilities, like an STL import function that actually works. In other words, keep Alibre Alibre, just disable the higher end machining features that home hobby types typically don't use. Add more and better import/export features. I do like the drawings, though - keep those - as I use that feature to send real 1:1 scale drawings in JPEG format to folks so they can compare whatever parts I make against their models, etc.

 

[HaroldL]

You may be a "hobbyist" but it sounds like you're using Alibre in a Professional/Commercial manner in that you are deriving an income from its use.

 

[bigseb]

You may be a "hobbyist" but it sounds like you're using Alibre in a Professional/Commercial manner in that you are deriving an income from its use.

Is that a problem? The way I understand it the hobby version is a limited version of the top-end software. Its the student version that is not commercial use (Alibre doesn't have a student version to my knowledge.)

 

[oldfox]

You may be a "hobbyist" but it sounds like you're using Alibre in a Professional/Commercial manner in that you are deriving an income from its use.

Don't confuse "hobbyist", "amateur". "tinkerer" etc. with one another.
A hobbyist by nature will certainly try to obtain an income to allow him to continue on with his hobby. (That stuff ain't cheap)
An amateur... well, think Olympics vs. professional. (Amateurs work for free) ((supposedly))
And the tinkerer just doesn't care. He does it because he enjoys it. Exactly like the Hobbyist only different.
*********************************
What aptiaboy said.

I'm neither professional nor commercial but I'll take a dime in a heartbeat for using Alibre for someone else.
When I was using ADPE Ver. 9 it had all I needed for what I was doing. But then enter GmD. The first knife was the removal of the
import and export types. That's when I kinda went off in my den and didn't come back out until just recently when Max and crew
came back on the scene. I think we all should give a HUGE shout out to all of those folks in Richardson. They probably don't hear it
enough.

And on that note, I'm putting my soap box back in the closet.
Thank you.

 

[oldfox]

The potential for abuse here is great for Alibre, hence a stripped down version.

All of you should be hoping that NOTHING ever jeopardizes Alibre LLC. GeoMagic... lesson learned.

 

[mstevens]

You may be a "hobbyist" but it sounds like you're using Alibre in a Professional/Commercial manner in that you are deriving an income from its use.

Agreed.

 

[swertel]

You may be a "hobbyist" but it sounds like you're using Alibre in a Professional/Commercial manner in that you are deriving an income from its use.

I would have to agree. While you may have a full time job or you may be retired, this is definitely a side hustle. It's more than a hobby.
You have a product that you sell. You even have a supply chain that you collaborate with.
While you may not make a profit from it; you do make an income. I hope you are more honest with the IRS than you are with Alibre, LLC.