Killer machine
- Thread starter ntar827
- Start date
jkleinhans
Member
Ntar...I've spend the past two days researching this for one of my users "neelie2", hopefully I can help save you time.
According to what was listed here on the forums, Alibre is not multi-threaded. A multithreaded application will run best on dual core processors, also known as "killer systems"...therefore dumping money into dual core processors could actually hinder performance of Alibre (long geek tech stuff that would take me too long to explain).
Also according to the forums, Alibre mostly uses DirectX. This is beneficial to you becuase you won't necessarily have to purchase a high end FireGL card, instead a very good gaming card will do. I've run Alibre on a ATI 9800 Pro AGP and it has handled the graphics portion (rotating/zooming/etc) just fine.
So, that leaves us to this conclusion... High end system, no dual core (unless you plan on running something multithreaded in the future) and a very good gaming vid card.
We've gone the route of a Dual Opteron (246 Processors) with 2GB of Corsair XMS DDR 400 RAM and a PCIx16 ATI X850XT video card.
I'm very confident it will be more than adequate, but it depends on what kind of extreme money your boss plans on spending. The Dual Processors will allow my user to multitask while rendering etc and not having a 100% processor spike. It has yet to arrive for me to assemble and configure, but I'm confident it will put an end to my users' Alibre processing demands.
Jon
I'would use a Intel mother board. The one I'm currently using has been the most stable PC I've ever had. No over clocking or other mods.
Also a decent power supply is very worthwhile.
Get a good case with decent ventilation.
RAM, get a decent brandname, not a generic (cheap) brand.
Hard drive, fast is good.
Video card, I'm using a Matrox Parhelia with support for 3 screens. I'm using 2 screen and would not go back to a single screen. Ie Excel on one and Alibre on the other. Just awesome.
For screens, the best I have seen are Sony but they are expensive. Couple of 21/22 CRT's if you got the room otherwise LCD.
http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/ will get you some information, they are a friendly helpful bunch. They helped me alot.
If you don't want to build the machine yourself, get a local trustworthy person to help, its quite simple really.
BTW, when I built my machine 2years ago it cost me about $4500, a Dell machine with same specs was $9000.
Good Luck
Kim :lol:
I am running a system used only for Cad/Cam work.
CPU : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz
Hard drive : Maxtor 4R120L0
MB : ASUSTeK Computer INC.
VIDEO CARD : MSI NX6600 (NVIDIA GeForce 6600) 256RAM
OS : Microsoft Windows XP Professional
1 gig Ram
Using a single 21" flat panel monitor for now but hope to get dual soon.
This system has served me well on Alibre as well as another couple programs using opengl instead of Direct X. I built this system for around $1000 including the monitor. Point being is my system is not the fastest out there but very capable. I have compaired rendering and save times to match other high end systems and meet or exceed most. I never have only one program open and usually at least 3.
Don't always build nased on the fastest thing out there. Make sure you read the user feedback for each item and do not get cheapest stuff.
Most definitly get a dual monitor capable graphics card.
Gaming systems are good for direct X with video,harddrive, ram, cpu, and bus speed all geared to work fast in that area.
We are buying a couple of workstations at work. We found a great buy. Check out the Si MTower 2P64 Workstation at http://www.xicomputer.com
Our configurations after discount $2425 each. This is with dual AMD Opteron processors, Pro Motherboard capable of 24G RAM, GeForce 6600 256MB Video, 2 160G hard drives 0Raid. ....etc.
Re: Killer machine
Contact Dell, and see what a good workstation would cost - no I don't work for Dell, but I do work for a multi-national company that spec's Dell workstations for use with Pro-E and Catia V5, two very 'heavy' CAD applications, and they have a pretty good pricing schedule, along with a fairly decent service department. And if you decide to buy more, you can get fairly good discounts, plus they have a recycling program for their older computers.
Also make sure you get as much memory as you can afford, 1Gb minimum, and a good graphics card (128 Mb graphics memory minimum). Processor speed is another consideration, but anything in the P4 family will do just fine. Make XP your operating system, just for its stability. Xp, like all OS's has a limit to the amount of memory it can handle, and I think for XP, it's 2Gb. Any application requiring that much or more will crash the system, so having more that 2Gb of memory is pretty much a waste of money - I'm really not familiar with all the ins and outs but it's what the ISIT people tell me at work.
Contact Dell, and see what a good workstation would cost - no I don't work for Dell, but I do work for a multi-national company that spec's Dell workstations for use with Pro-E and Catia V5, two very 'heavy' CAD applications, and they have a pretty good pricing schedule, along with a fairly decent service department. And if you decide to buy more, you can get fairly good discounts, plus they have a recycling program for their older computers.
Also make sure you get as much memory as you can afford, 1Gb minimum, and a good graphics card (128 Mb graphics memory minimum). Processor speed is another consideration, but anything in the P4 family will do just fine. Make XP your operating system, just for its stability. Xp, like all OS's has a limit to the amount of memory it can handle, and I think for XP, it's 2Gb. Any application requiring that much or more will crash the system, so having more that 2Gb of memory is pretty much a waste of money - I'm really not familiar with all the ins and outs but it's what the ISIT people tell me at work.
Re: Killer machine
My opinion of Dell: Stay away... this is based on horrible customer support problems from people that I know. I would suggest looking at those companies that package standard components at better prices. I realize that many people are very loyal to Dell, I appologize if I have offended, not my intent so please don't lash back at me for posting my negative opinion.
Memory limit: While the memory limit is a reality with current operating systems, it may be a very good consideration to look ahead to a system with XP64 and other application support. The memory limit then skyrockets.
AMD vs. Pentium. I favor AMD64 based on my use of both. Look into the CAD workstations, gaming systems, etc. and you will find extensive use of AMD now. Bottom line: Research Benchmarks, don't make any judgement based on processing speed alone.
My response is based on the allowance of a "killer machine." Why not go for one that will last more than a year before an upgrade is needed? Will your boss let you upgrade every year? (if so, one strategy would be to buy a prepackaged PC each year for $1000, but it won't be killer)
My opinion of Dell: Stay away... this is based on horrible customer support problems from people that I know. I would suggest looking at those companies that package standard components at better prices. I realize that many people are very loyal to Dell, I appologize if I have offended, not my intent so please don't lash back at me for posting my negative opinion.
Memory limit: While the memory limit is a reality with current operating systems, it may be a very good consideration to look ahead to a system with XP64 and other application support. The memory limit then skyrockets.
AMD vs. Pentium. I favor AMD64 based on my use of both. Look into the CAD workstations, gaming systems, etc. and you will find extensive use of AMD now. Bottom line: Research Benchmarks, don't make any judgement based on processing speed alone.
My response is based on the allowance of a "killer machine." Why not go for one that will last more than a year before an upgrade is needed? Will your boss let you upgrade every year? (if so, one strategy would be to buy a prepackaged PC each year for $1000, but it won't be killer)
There will always be some number of transactions that will result in an unhappy customer, but when you look at the aggregate I think you'll find that Dell must be doing something right in the support department:
#1 PC Magazine customer satisfaction poll for 7 straight years
#1 in TBR customer satisfaction rating for 20 of the last 21 quarters
#1 Gartner Group customer loyalty index for the last 5 years
...
A
Anonymous
Guest
Dell for home and work. There is a reason they are number one. Look into a SCSI hard drive with ultra fast seek times. It makes a huge difference in overall load times, save times, and in memory management. A faster hard drive allows the swap space to be accessed more quickly.
Maybe I will change my opinion of Dell. Like I said, I am going by word of mouth of those that I know that own Dell's and wish they did not. It is hard to erase the negative image once the damage is done. Maybe we should start another thread on just this topic (Poll). Those that own Dell's could respond.
If it is a dedicated CAD station, I would go with a socket 939 pci express board with an Athlon 64 4000+, and a big aftermarket cpu sink and fan, the stock ones are not very good. If running apps in the background along with AD, I would look at a dual core Opteron. AMD performs better than Intel in single cores, and AD benefits the most from CPU SPEED. However the performance gained going with an Athlon FX55 or 57 are not worth the extra $500, put that towards a pair of nVidia 6800GT cards on pci express, this will work well with the DX9. If you're getting a "whitebox" (custom or no-name) make sure that an APPROVED, TOP QUALITY power supply is used, a cheap power supply will be apt to make your system unstable. Clean power is much better than more power. I would put in 2 gig of quality ram, any more won't really get used. Dual 21" displays would be nice too. Dual SATA drives are good, I have a WD 10k Raptor, and it has worked well. IMO, RAID 1 is better than RAID 0 because it gives you a 2nd copy of all your data. If one drive dies, just replace it and all your data is still on the other drive. Performance is stock, as slower writes are offset by faster reads. Raid 0 is may be faster, but if one drive craps out, ALL your data on the other drive is gone too.
Re:
On the 2 systems we are now ordering (link in my post above to Xi), we got pretty much what you are describing. It was not much more to add the second Opteron, so we ordered the dual processors. Regarding the drives, we matched the drives for RAID, went with 0 (for the increased performance). Our thinking is that we can backup to a third drive (or a network drive). I don't currently run RAID, how much performance do you think we would give up by going to RAID 1?
macinc said:
On the 2 systems we are now ordering (link in my post above to Xi), we got pretty much what you are describing. It was not much more to add the second Opteron, so we ordered the dual processors. Regarding the drives, we matched the drives for RAID, went with 0 (for the increased performance). Our thinking is that we can backup to a third drive (or a network drive). I don't currently run RAID, how much performance do you think we would give up by going to RAID 1?
archimedes
Member
Well it looks like fun time for everyone!
Wow some very impressive & helpful obs from all and after reading
all of the great suggestions I have my $2/100 worth-
Here goes:
1. I "was" a Dell user -- not anymore
2. The Socket 939 Nvidia Chipset Technology is a darn good start
Macinc's suggestion I have to second
3. Go 1 step further and buy a MoBo that accepts and then enables
seemlessly the SLI feature for bridging 2 like graphics cards
4. From 3 above and like someone else suggested the GeForce
128 or 256Mb graphics card technology is very strong artillery
5. Again I second the raid 1 setup on hard drives- this is very
effective and super use of good money for the best return
6. AMD processing is the toolbelt that I always have around me --
there are plenty of AMD users out there on MANY different websites
with the same efforts
7. Cases -- Aluminum is pretty and a BIG heatsink and rugged enough
when packaged correctly for shipping.
Thermaltake make some very impressive cases so take a look
at them. They use a "no tools" assembly paradigm that is truthful
8. There is also a Zalman fanless paradigm in cases, but this is an
artful effort that your wallet and your "gasp" will greatly respect
9. A power supply suggested by someone else was right on -- get it
from a good manufacturer with a good rep and get it plenty big:
How big . . . . .? start at 400 watts and probably 500 watts will be
just fine.
10. MoBo's are the creatures of sinful desires, lustful vengences and
devine possessions. Rightfully so-- I have seen many Gigabyte
owners decry the unmerciful zing of the ASUS gurus as the bastions
of the flatboard leap with might into to the next realm of digital spark
art
Listen as you may, but don't leave the ASUS MoBo out of your lustful
gaze
11. Oh-- and do start your eyes on a 19" LCD, and make it 2 to
economize the shipping
finally: Where to start . . . . . . ?
Newegg it of course!
You'll get a ton of solid reviews and plenty of product to compare
They are an excellent service oriented site and the confidence level
from constant customers like me will inspire you.
Good luck and enjoy the adventure,
archi
RAID 9 & backups
I run Raid 0 for the performance, and I use Backup On Demand software for continuous real time backups of my data to another hard drive (good use for an old hard drive). With 3 hard drives you could also run another version of Raid 0 + 1 (if available) that has the speed of Raid 0 and backup of Raid 1. The big problem with running RAID is retrieving your data if the motherboard goes bad. Can you just plug that RAID configuration into a new motherboard and access the data. The chipsets change quite often and my earlier RAID systems can not be read by my later RAID setups. Motherboards do go bad, and will probably be out of production by the time it does.
I really prefer having a backup of the data on a hard drive without RAID, that I can move to another computer if I have to try and recover the data. Backup On Demand will also ZIP the backup data to save space, and runs off idle CPU time. I have yet to feel that it has impacted response time. The software monitors when files are changed, and will back them up right after you save them. I have found the backups to only lag with really large files like Photoshop graphics of 35mb range. Alibre files are so small that you will be hard pressed to catch the software doing the backup, or impacting your performance. This is where dual processors etc. may give a benefit, being able to run the backups without any imposition on the Alibre application. But, I have yet to complain about any performance degredation with the backups. Just configure to watch the folders where the data is stored, and the software will do the rest.
There are a few more titles out there that do the same thing, but they are very rare compared to software that runs scheduled backups. PowerQuest Datakeeper is another software, but Powerquest has been bought out by Symantic and PowerQuest sort of abandoned the software even before that. It still works quite well on Windows XP and can be gotten really cheap with an old copy of Drive Image 5. It's main problem was that every new folder added to the hard drive was automatically added to the backups. Not too good if it was a temporary folder with large files. Securdat is a good piece of software, but has not been updated for quite some time. Backup on Demand has regular updates.
I have configured many friends systems with each of these 3 real time backup softwares, and when there is a problem (or they just delete a file), they have been able to retreive it from the backup. Others using regular backup software often seem to loose the files as they haven't backed up for about a week or two. It is a lot of work to do regular backups when it is rare that your system crashes. And, not all of us have I.T. staff to do our backups. Even those that do, often can not get anything newer than last night and you may have to deal with overworked staff that are really not looking forware to restoring that data from a full backup and a few incrementals after that, to back that folder you deleted.
I run Raid 0 for the performance, and I use Backup On Demand software for continuous real time backups of my data to another hard drive (good use for an old hard drive). With 3 hard drives you could also run another version of Raid 0 + 1 (if available) that has the speed of Raid 0 and backup of Raid 1. The big problem with running RAID is retrieving your data if the motherboard goes bad. Can you just plug that RAID configuration into a new motherboard and access the data. The chipsets change quite often and my earlier RAID systems can not be read by my later RAID setups. Motherboards do go bad, and will probably be out of production by the time it does.
I really prefer having a backup of the data on a hard drive without RAID, that I can move to another computer if I have to try and recover the data. Backup On Demand will also ZIP the backup data to save space, and runs off idle CPU time. I have yet to feel that it has impacted response time. The software monitors when files are changed, and will back them up right after you save them. I have found the backups to only lag with really large files like Photoshop graphics of 35mb range. Alibre files are so small that you will be hard pressed to catch the software doing the backup, or impacting your performance. This is where dual processors etc. may give a benefit, being able to run the backups without any imposition on the Alibre application. But, I have yet to complain about any performance degredation with the backups. Just configure to watch the folders where the data is stored, and the software will do the rest.
There are a few more titles out there that do the same thing, but they are very rare compared to software that runs scheduled backups. PowerQuest Datakeeper is another software, but Powerquest has been bought out by Symantic and PowerQuest sort of abandoned the software even before that. It still works quite well on Windows XP and can be gotten really cheap with an old copy of Drive Image 5. It's main problem was that every new folder added to the hard drive was automatically added to the backups. Not too good if it was a temporary folder with large files. Securdat is a good piece of software, but has not been updated for quite some time. Backup on Demand has regular updates.
I have configured many friends systems with each of these 3 real time backup softwares, and when there is a problem (or they just delete a file), they have been able to retreive it from the backup. Others using regular backup software often seem to loose the files as they haven't backed up for about a week or two. It is a lot of work to do regular backups when it is rare that your system crashes. And, not all of us have I.T. staff to do our backups. Even those that do, often can not get anything newer than last night and you may have to deal with overworked staff that are really not looking forware to restoring that data from a full backup and a few incrementals after that, to back that folder you deleted.
Dell not what they used to be!
I used to recommend Dell as their systems were constructed from standard parts that could be repaired easily by anyone.
But, probably to keep down costs, I have been encountering more Dell systems with proprietary parts that can not be repaired as easily. That is why I have not recommend so many other brand name systems, as it usually costs more to replace the bad part than buy an entirely new system. Sony wanted $400 for a replacement motherboard for a system just over a year old. Worst of all, the software installed on that system was on special restoration build disks that would not install again on any other system. They not only had to buy a new computer, they had to buy over $1000 of software all over again!
Maybe some of the higher end systems still use industry standard parts, but will you know before you buy it?
The latest Dell I am working on is disapointing the new owner as all that software he thought he was getting included, is only 30 and 60 day trial software. I even have had to buy and install antivirus and firewall software because that too is a limited demo. Some does not even give a demo, just an option to buy now. And I lost count how many internet service promotions I had to uninstall to get a clean system.
Dells online Chat support was quite good, but I had to use that service because the online information about the system was outdated and incorrect. Otherwise they try to sell you phone support.
It is a shame, as once their reputation is tarnished, they will be hard pressed to recover. I no longer recommend Dell systems and now recommend they find a small independent shop or individual to build them a system from scratch.
As for Alibre and CAD where performance is a priority, I feel that a custom system is the only way to go. The hard part is finding the right parts to build a system. I have gotten good and bad performing motherboard from the same manufacturer. With everything changing so fast, you can't just stick with the same model, and some models are just not as good as others.
A lot of good recommendations in this thread. Good Luck.
I used to recommend Dell as their systems were constructed from standard parts that could be repaired easily by anyone.
But, probably to keep down costs, I have been encountering more Dell systems with proprietary parts that can not be repaired as easily. That is why I have not recommend so many other brand name systems, as it usually costs more to replace the bad part than buy an entirely new system. Sony wanted $400 for a replacement motherboard for a system just over a year old. Worst of all, the software installed on that system was on special restoration build disks that would not install again on any other system. They not only had to buy a new computer, they had to buy over $1000 of software all over again!
Maybe some of the higher end systems still use industry standard parts, but will you know before you buy it?
The latest Dell I am working on is disapointing the new owner as all that software he thought he was getting included, is only 30 and 60 day trial software. I even have had to buy and install antivirus and firewall software because that too is a limited demo. Some does not even give a demo, just an option to buy now. And I lost count how many internet service promotions I had to uninstall to get a clean system.
Dells online Chat support was quite good, but I had to use that service because the online information about the system was outdated and incorrect. Otherwise they try to sell you phone support.
It is a shame, as once their reputation is tarnished, they will be hard pressed to recover. I no longer recommend Dell systems and now recommend they find a small independent shop or individual to build them a system from scratch.
As for Alibre and CAD where performance is a priority, I feel that a custom system is the only way to go. The hard part is finding the right parts to build a system. I have gotten good and bad performing motherboard from the same manufacturer. With everything changing so fast, you can't just stick with the same model, and some models are just not as good as others.
A lot of good recommendations in this thread. Good Luck.
jkleinhans
Member
If you're going the custom-built route (which is much better IMHO) take a peek at this hardware...this will maximize your Alibre application and allow upgradability in the future.
http://www.alibre.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1868
My user is very happy with this machine
Jon
jwknecht said:
RAID performance includes more than people usually think of, and has alot to do with what apps you are using. For example raid0 could be faster loading a large file to work on, but then your speed improvement may taper off if your app itself is made up of small files, reason being that while read transfer may be faster with the two drives, head positioning to find the small peices may be slower over multiple disks. In general raid0 is faster than a single disk, but for the average user the performance increase might not be as noticable as they thought it would be, where the chances of disk failure are higher with two drives (that act as one) than with a single disk. This is a good read if your interested in RAID:
(From the article) "I would also say that too many people overvalue the importance of greatly increasing sequential transfer rates through the use of striping. A lot of people seem to think that implementing RAID 0 is an easy way to storage nirvana, but for "average use" it may not help performance nearly as much as you might think."
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/raid/index.htm
I don't use raid myself 'cause I don't really need it (I auto back up to an external HD), and I usually only work on AD by itself. I did get a WD 10k raptor HD which I am happy with, but there again, I don't feel much of a speed gain over a 7200 sata.
The biggest bang for the $$ was my mobo/cpu. I have a DFI LanParty NF4 with a 939 Athlon 64 3000. I notice a big improvement over an Athlon XP at the same clock speed, especially in display speed. I have it overclocked to run at 2400 mgz, up from it's stock 1800 mgz. On the A64, the northbridge is built into the cpu, so there is not much need to oc the memory. I just turn up the cpu mgz, (it runs at stock voltage), use a mem divider to keep the memory speed stock (I am using Corsair ValueRam), and bam! I have an A64 3800 that runs at 34 deg C under load, idles at 28, and is stable as stock. I built this box just to run AD, cost less than $1400 for everything.
DFI LanParty NF4
Athlon64 3000 (oc'd to 2.4)
Thermaltake CL-P0006 heatsink w/92mm fan
1 gig Corsair ValueRam
36 gig SATA WD Raptor 10k
(1) Nvidia 6600 GT 128 meg PCI Xpress
(might add a 2nd card in the future)
Enermax EG565AX-VE FMA 2.0 SLI 535W power supply
19" digital LCD and 17" Hitachi CRT
Antec aluminum case, 120mm inlet and outlet