M-files Backup failure

[steveastro]

I have just lost ~1 1/2 months work, and I am not a happy man.

We have been making religous backups of our M-files vault, on a system where client and server are the same machine - not uncommon I am told. Backups are taken onto a remote machine, and we had quite a set.

The PC Windows system became flaky - one too many installs, and the USB system went tits up, so we decided to move everything over onto a new PC, wipe the old system and start again. An M-files backup was taken.

We moved the old system over with PC-mover, and DID leave it running for another week or so. I went away on business. The guys uses the old system, without telling me, and the drive failed.

No problem, we have the old backup, we'll restore that.......

WORK is missing !!!!

Why ??? BECAUSE UNLESS YOU EXPLICITLY CHECK IN YOUR FILES, M-FILES BACKUP DOESN'T BACKUP YOUR DATA.

This is just about the most stupid thing I've ever heard of, there are NO messages WARNING that files are checked out, and should be in before the backup is taken. And they want 350 USD/ seat for this crud.

 

[jhiker]

Yet if you attempt to shut down or re-start your PC it will tell you if you have files checked out.

It does seem crazy.

 

[steveastro]

My point with M-files is "so what ? " checked out, checked in, checked SIDEways, As far as I was concerned M-files was looking after my files via its backup - but no, its LOOKING and saying, these files are nothing to do with me, because they are checked out - it MUST know the files are checked out when you backup, but it doesn't warn you, and not even an admin, as far as I can see can actually CALL everything in and back it up.

What appears to happen in the event that a client machine DIES with unchecked in files is you are basically screwed - the files on the client are NOT accessible to anything else to look after them, and M-files doesn't give a monkey's.

I am sorely tempted to dump this crap and use something a.) Open Source b.) Free as in Speech c.) Understandable, like Tortoise SVN.

Steve

 

[NateLiquidGravity]

A) Are you sure that you are using the same vault login info as originally used?
B) Are you sure that you used the most recent full backup along with any differential backups.
C) Had the files ever been checked into the vault at least once?

Imagine a library. People check out books and then check them in when done. Lets say the librarian has a magic box that instantly digitizes the book. Every time a book gets checked in the librarian digitizes a copy in the magic box and adds it to the history of that book. Once a week the librarian makes a backup of the entire digitized library. If the book was checked out for a month then no digitized copy or history can be made for that weeks backup. If the library never gets the book in the first place there is no magically digitized copy or history to make any backup.

 

[NateLiquidGravity]

Admin right click "Undo Checkout" and "Send Check-in Request"

Notifications must be set up on the server for requests to work.

 

[DavidJ]

In addition to Nate's points - it must be remembered that Check is both 'per user' and 'per machine' - so if I have an item checked out on one PC, I can't check it back in from another even if I'm using the same userID. I have to check it in from the machine it was checked out on.

It is mechanisms like this that support 'offline working' which are so important to some users. I can see that in a single PC environment it may not be clear why things are arranged this way.

 

[albie0803]

Notifications must be set up on the server for requests to work.

Please explain this in more detail.

I had set m-files to auto backup each afternoon but as I wear various hats at work I often get interrupted and couldn't guarantee that I would remember to check in all items before I left, so I have set a reminder to manually check in and backup a few times a week.

I am also experimenting at the moment with software that constantly backs up the whole m-files vault folder.

For single users there needs to be an option that automatically checks in an item when the alibre file is closed.

 

[DavidJ]

For single users there needs to be an option that automatically checks in an item when the alibre file is closed.

There is - M-Files client settings gives 3 options for behaviour on file close...

* Leave checked out
* Check in immediately
* Ask (with selectable default)

Having said that - I have my system set to Ask (with default of do not check in); it behaves this way for all files EXCEPT Alibre ones where it doesn't ask.

 

[steveastro]

A) Are you sure that you are using the same vault login info as originally used?
B) Are you sure that you used the most recent full backup along with any differential backups.
C) Had the files ever been checked into the vault at least once?

Imagine a library. People check out books and then check them in when done. Lets say the librarian has a magic box that instantly digitizes the book. Every time a book gets checked in the librarian digitizes a copy in the magic box and adds it to the history of that book. Once a week the librarian makes a backup of the entire digitized library. If the book was checked out for a month then no digitized copy or history can be made for that weeks backup. If the library never gets the book in the first place there is no magically digitized copy or history to make any backup.

Taking your flawed analogy, the damned book is still in the librarian's hands, on the desk in front of them. They are under the impression that because its there, on the desk, and they can see it, that they know where it is.

A.) Should it matter ? I have full admin priveleges to my vaults. Are you saying I DON'T have full access to the data in MY vaults ?
B.) Yes.
C.) Clearly not.

Steve

 

[steveastro]

In addition to Nate's points - it must be remembered that Check is both 'per user' and 'per machine' - so if I have an item checked out on one PC, I can't check it back in from another even if I'm using the same userID. I have to check it in from the machine it was checked out on.

It is mechanisms like this that support 'offline working' which are so important to some users. I can see that in a single PC environment it may not be clear why things are arranged this way.

It is crazy that there is NO WARNING before you do a backup, that there ARE files checked out.

How, from the admin panel, do I see if there are files checked out ?

Steve

 

[DavidJ]

From server administrator there isn't a simple way to see if items are checked out.

It is simple to set up a Client view of all checked out documents.

 

[steveastro]

From server administrator there isn't a simple way to see if items are checked out.

It is simple to set up a Client view of all checked out documents.

...but the client isn't doing the backup. Its the administrator who does them that needs to know.

Also "check in automatically" doesn't according to that client view.

Steve

 

[DavidJ]

The person initiating the back up would normally have access to Client software, though I agree it would be nice if the Back up tool at least notified you that files are checked out.

I'm trying to work out what is (or isn't) happening with automatic check-in, on my system it works OK for everything except Alibre files.

 

[steveastro]

The person initiating the back up would normally have access to Client software, though I agree it would be nice if the Back up tool at least notified you that files are checked out.

NICE ! Its essential - or it isn't a backup tool in any sense anyone else uses. Its backups everything...except the files people are using....

I'm trying to work out what is (or isn't) happening with automatic check-in, on my system it works OK for everything except Alibre files.

Good one that innit ? I had "auto check-in" ticked - and that's another reason why its messed up this "backup" !!

 

[NateLiquidGravity]

Taking your flawed analogy, the damned book is still in the librarian's hands, on the desk in front of them. They are under the impression that because its there, on the desk, and they can see it, that they know where it is.

A.) Should it matter ? I have full admin priveleges to my vaults. Are you saying I DON'T have full access to the data in MY vaults ?
B.) Yes.
C.) Clearly not.

Steve

Actually when the book is checked out all the library has is the "card" saying who checked it out and an empty spot on the shelf (and in my analogy a magical digital copy with history if the library had the book in the first place). What you were seeing was the "cards" and placeholders.

A.) Even an admin doesn't have access to checking in new data that is still checked out. It would not have helped at all in this case. I was just trying to narrow down what had happened with that little test.

 

[steveastro]

Actually when the book is checked out all the library has is the "card" saying who checked it out and an empty spot on the shelf (and in my analogy a magical digital copy with history if the library had the book in the first place). What you were seeing was the "cards" and placeholders.

And how clear is that to Alibre users - that their files, whci appear in the "m-FILES" view, are, unless they are explicitly checked in just shadows ?

 

[dammerel]

have you posted this question on the m-files forum ?

 

[steveastro]

have you posted this question on the m-files forum ?

Not yet. It seems its mainly an Alibre issue, especially with the failure of auto-check in. M-files seems to want money off me to talk about problems.

Steve

 

[albie0803]

I am in the middle of an email dialog with an m-files rep concerning backup devices and I have just commented to him about this issue.

 

[steveastro]

That's interesting, I'm VERY interested in the replies.
As it is, I feel M-files is junk and not fit for purpose. With the old system, at least you knew exactly where you were.
Steve