What's new

Sketch Scaling....

jfleming

Alibre Super User
Sketch Scaling... Is this anywhere in the future? When I draw my basic shape for the sketch, then place the first dimension, more times than not, it goes all wonky, as shown.

It would be ideal to draw the sketch, place dimension, and the rest of sketch scale with it, so as to retain the originally sketched form.
 

Attachments

  • 11111.JPG
    11111.JPG
    27.1 KB · Views: 44
  • 11112.JPG
    11112.JPG
    24.5 KB · Views: 43

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
It would be a nice addition to Alibre. Until then i would suggest dimensioning the sketch starting with the smaller figures first to see if that helps. OR turn on Real Time Dimensioning and key in the dimensions for each figure as you sketch them.
 

KeithH

Senior Member
Sketch Scaling... Is this anywhere in the future? When I draw my basic shape for the sketch, then place the first dimension, more times than not, it goes all wonky, as shown.

It would be ideal to draw the sketch, place dimension, and the rest of sketch scale with it, so as to retain the originally sketched form.
What Harold said would help. Or start with the vertical dimensions on the right side starting from top or bottom and work your way up or down.then do the shorter horizontal ones next.
 
Last edited:

KeithH

Senior Member
Sketch Scaling... Is this anywhere in the future? When I draw my basic shape for the sketch, then place the first dimension, more times than not, it goes all wonky, as shown.

It would be ideal to draw the sketch, place dimension, and the rest of sketch scale with it, so as to retain the originally sketched form.
Also it helps if you make that sketch shape off to the side and after you dimension it, then you can constrain it to the origin point. That way the sketch is not being impeded by a lock to the origin while you make it fully defined.

basically just pick a point in thin air not on an axis or the origin to start the sketch and after you get it dimensioned , then constrain it to the origin point Hope this helps
 

jfleming

Alibre Super User
It would be a nice addition to Alibre. Until then i would suggest dimensioning the sketch starting with the smaller figures first to see if that helps. OR turn on Real Time Dimensioning and key in the dimensions for each figure as you sketch them.

Yeah thats what I end up going back and doing.

This Real Time Dimensioning... have not heard of that before, I will check it out. Been using this software 8 years now and always learning something.
 

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
The option is only available while in sketch mode. You can find the setting in the Sketch menu

RTD Menu.png

or the Sketch ribbon.

RTD Sketch Ribbon.png
 

VoltsAndBolts

Senior Member
Sketch Scaling... Is this anywhere in the future? When I draw my basic shape for the sketch, then place the first dimension, more times than not, it goes all wonky, as shown.

It would be ideal to draw the sketch, place dimension, and the rest of sketch scale with it, so as to retain the originally sketched form.
I agree 100%
 

bigseb

Alibre Super User
Or, after adding the first dimension that makes it go wonky simply drag the rest back to where you want it.
 

OTE_TheMissile

Alibre Super User
My usual workflow for Sketches like this is to draw the first couple of lines (generally the largest ones), dimension them so I have some idea of the overall size of what I'm drawing, then rough out the rest of the Sketch and dimension everything.

Just my $0.02
 

JST

Alibre Super User
I see that from time to time. It's not the program, it is my "garbage input".... a sketch that is inconsistent with the dimensions I end up giving it.

Actually, it appears that Alibre is behaving perfectly as designed and expected. When the dimension is set, the sketch is re-drawn as it was, except for the new information. Dimensions are left the same except where they cannot be the same.

How would you want the program to decide what your intention was? How would it know what you "really wanted"?

If you mean the ability to simply say "make this sketch 75% as big", or "make this sketch just like it is, but scaled so that this line is 0.875" (or whatever)...... Then OK... Those might be useful things.

Problem is if that were to create implied dimensions that come back to bite later. That would probably not be wanted.
 

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
Problem is if that were to create implied dimensions that come back to bite later.
As sketch scaling to first dimension works in SW, and as it should IMO, there are no implied dimensions created.The program "looks" at the dimension being applied and somehow scales the remaining sketch figures based on that dimension. The effect is that as you apply the first dimension to the sketch you don't even see the scaling take place except for, in some cases, a slight change in the zoom factor to fit the sketch in the view. After the sketch is scaled you are free to apply the remaining dimensions as you see fit.
 

MikeHenry

Alibre Super User
Or, after adding the first dimension that makes it go wonky simply drag the rest back to where you want it.

Or maybe Alibre could just fix the problem. Onshape handles it that way. These days I find myself drawn more and more to software that aggravates me the least and sketches that go wonky when the 1st dimension is set is really annoying.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JST

bigseb

Alibre Super User
Or maybe Alibre could just fix the problem. Onshape handles it that way. These days I find myself drawn more and more to software that aggravates me the least and sketches that go wonky when the 1st dimension is set is really annoying.
True but I maintain there are far more pressing issues...
 

JST

Alibre Super User
True but I maintain there are far more pressing issues...

And, that seems to be part of the problem. There seem to be more and more small annoying factors, that add up to aggravation. It is actually tending to decrease the old-time intuitive way Alibre used to work.

Alibre is not horrible, yet, but I see the trend going the wrong way. Sometimes the "new features" have bad effects that make them worse than the old way.

There is a good bit of that in the new constraints window. I still do not like the way the new version enforces a sequential set of choices, and the way it completes each step in "reality", before all the modifiers are applied. If it "indicated the result" instead of making an "official change" at each step, many or most of the problems would just disappear.

It comes down to programmers not being "users", and test users perhaps "knowing too much", so they just do not try some methods that will occur "out in the wild". Not that the "out in the wild" procedures are wrong, just not anticipated by the program architects and programmers.

Which brings up another point.... internal standards on operation, look, and feel. A set of internal standards codifies standard sequences, standard presentations, etc, so that when users see new things, they already understand a lot about them, and know how the thing is expected to work as far as position of "accept" buttons, etc. Makes the program easier to use.

If you "train users" to do one sequence, and operate buttons in a particular relative location, you should not change that in later versions. At least you should not change just for some things.... change all or change none.

Alibre has been "pretty good" about that, but could improve. Again the constraint window is a prime example.
 

mstevens

Member
Sketch Scaling... Is this anywhere in the future? When I draw my basic shape for the sketch, then place the first dimension, more times than not, it goes all wonky, as shown.

It would be ideal to draw the sketch, place dimension, and the rest of sketch scale with it, so as to retain the originally sketched form.

I mentioned this in another post quite some time ago. It seems like this should be a VERY EASY fix programmatically. I am unsure why Alibre will not STOP and fix this issue. If one draws an outline with say 5 line segments. Each of those line segments should be in a list or table or whatever; once any of the line segments is dimension, all the other line segments in the table/list/whatever data structure should just be scaled with the same scaling factor. This seems to me is should be fixable in tens of minutes, not hours. They should fix this. It is such a nice feature in Solidworks.
 

Max

Administrator
Staff member
I mentioned this in another post quite some time ago. It seems like this should be a VERY EASY fix programmatically. I am unsure why Alibre will not STOP and fix this issue. If one draws an outline with say 5 line segments. Each of those line segments should be in a list or table or whatever; once any of the line segments is dimension, all the other line segments in the table/list/whatever data structure should just be scaled with the same scaling factor. This seems to me is should be fixable in tens of minutes, not hours. They should fix this. It is such a nice feature in Solidworks.

Just to be clear, the way it works today is not "broken". You clearly would like it to work differently, which I understand. We can look into what it might take to do this. Nothing is tens of minutes, and rarely hours.

Also, there are a few things to keep in mind. What if you project a linear edge and you create another line that has an equal constraint to the projected edge, and then other figures. You place a dimension on some other figure, and now everything has to scale. But the projected line nor its equal constraint cousin can scale. So now what? Do we not scale anything? Try to only scale what can be moved?

When we do scale, where to we scale from? If you dimension a line, then the centerpoint of the line might be the scaling zero, but what if you dimension between two lines?

It's not as straightforward as you might think. I understand it feels like it's so simple, but there are some corner cases and gotchas which, as usual, take 80% of the time.

In any case, we can take a look. If it is in fact simple we can consider it.
 

mstevens

Member
Just to be clear, the way it works today is not "broken". You clearly would like it to work differently, which I understand. We can look into what it might take to do this. Nothing is tens of minutes, and rarely hours.

Also, there are a few things to keep in mind. What if you project a linear edge and you create another line that has an equal constraint to the projected edge, and then other figures. You place a dimension on some other figure, and now everything has to scale. But the projected line nor its equal constraint cousin can scale. So now what? Do we not scale anything? Try to only scale what can be moved?

When we do scale, where to we scale from? If you dimension a line, then the centerpoint of the line might be the scaling zero, but what if you dimension between two lines?

It's not as straightforward as you might think. I understand it feels like it's so simple, but there are some corner cases and gotchas which, as usual, take 80% of the time.

In any case, we can take a look. If it is in fact simple we can consider it.

Max, thanks for the response. I think it is completely awesome that you care enough to be here fielding issues and concerns of customers.

Given, one draws ANY sketch without dimensions; and say there are x entities in the sketch. Those entities may or may not be physically connected but all of the entities fit in the displayed view. It is reasonable to assume that those entities are arranged the way the author intends them. Placing a dimension on any one of those objects should, in no way disturb the arrangement of the entities in the sketch.

The only way I see to not disturb the sketch is to scale entities. The scaling should be ALWAYS; after all, the author did take the time to draw the shape as they wished it to be. It is improbable that one would go through the rigors of drawing a desired shape to then place a dimension on one of the entities in the shape, and have the shape completely change. At least that is MHO.

Please be patient with me, I am not mechanical designer, drafter, 3d person, etc. I know VERY little about 3d/mechanical design. I've never made a product with any package, SW, Alibre, Turbocad, Freecad or any other. I am just a guys than owns engineering software and like to play with it when I am not golfing. I do however have a AS in Math and Computer Science, a BS & MS in Electrical Engineering, and will be starting work on a PhD in EE in the fall. So the example(s) you give elude me...

Further, my work background is that I have been a computer/IT guy ALL of my life, since age 14--age is 52 now. A do know how to program in C, C++, C#, and other languages, C++ being my preferred. I give my background to let you know I am not an expert or even an neophyte in mechanical design. But some things just make sense.

So I am attaching two pictures. One with the shape I want; and one after I dimension the circle. The only circumstance that should change this shape is if there were already any dimensions on the sketch. But, as initially stated I am talking about placing the FIRST dim in the sketch so the aforementioned circumstance would not exist.
AlibreExample.jpg AlibreExample-2.jpg
This shape should not change when the first dim is added. We have 4 lines and a circle... as follow

entity dim
line1 a
line2 b
line3 c
line4 d
circle1 e

Assume that e=.1643 and then I dim it to 100... Well then the scaling factor is 100/.1643=608.6427; so to keep the shape the same would mean

entity dim
line1 a*608.6427
line2 b*608.6427
line3 c*608.6427
line4 d*608.6427
circle1 100

I don't think there is any other way to ensure that the shape is preserved. Again, your examples bewilder me somewhat; perhaps it is just my lack of understanding of this domain. But, that is how it works in SW. ...I supposed you'd have to work out the coordinates as well but I don't see that as being overly complicated either.
 
Last edited:

HaroldL

Alibre Super User
@mstevens that is a good example/description of how sketch scaling should work and I think that is how it works in SolidWorks. In the few years that I used SW at work it has saved me a lot of time by not having to zoom out or in and/or redo the sketch because one sketch entity has taken on a new dimensioned size and left the rest as sketched, either too large or too small. Hopefully the video link I posted gives a good demo of sketch scaling in action.

Also, there are a few things to keep in mind. What if you project a linear edge and you create another line that has an equal constraint to the projected edge, and then other figures. You place a dimension on some other figure, and now everything has to scale. But the projected line nor its equal constraint cousin can scale. So now what? Do we not scale anything? Try to only scale what can be moved?

@Max when you project an edge isn't the resulting sketch entity already scaled to the size of the edge projected from? Especially if retain association is toggled on. In that case wouldn't the user make an attempt to create the sketch "in scale" to the projected edge? Well anyway that's what I would do. If that's the case for project-to-sketch entities then scaling the remaining sketch figures wouldn't be necessary.

As much as I would like to see this implemented I would like some of the past requests (like the 2D drawing dimension text alignment issue) given some priority.
 
Last edited:

MikeHenry

Alibre Super User
True but I maintain there are far more pressing issues...

Depends on your point of view. I'm mostly a hobbyist and am usually modeling single parts or very simple assemblies and, from your posts, seems like you use Alibre for more professional and complicated applications. That's fine, but doesn't invalidate my opinion.,
 

Max

Administrator
Staff member
This post is being linked to more and more so I just want to make clear - I updated what is scheduled and also made clear the rest are subject to time opening up, but I certainly do not want people to take this post as "we'll get 90% of these".

As much as I would like to see this implemented I would like some of the past requests (like the 2D drawing dimension text alignment issue) given some priority.

I get a few pet requests and this is on the list for v24. I cannot promise it will occur as we have to look into it, but it is 100% slated to be evaluated and is on the short list.

In case you're curious, here are my other pet requests for v24, and I want to get them all done. May not be practical, but we're going to try. They are not in order:

  • Scheduled - Visualize the Center of Mass
  • Scheduled - Change location of Apply button in Constraint Dialog and add preview option
  • Scheduled - Add help to licensing issue dialogs
    Simple help buttons on licensing error dialogs so users can self-service common problems immediately.
  • Scheduled - Improve the Hole callout text representation in 2D Drawings
    x vs X, for example

Maybe - no guarantees for any of these:
Warn on performance issue - sketch / pattern
Let someone know if they're making a huge pattern that there may be issues, provide alternatives, and suggest they save.


Manually Reconnect Lost Dimensions in 2D
Sometimes disassociated dims are unavoidable bc underlying geometry changed too much for topology names to be kept properly. But having to select, delete, and then reapply dimensions of this nature is tedious and annoying. Double click such a dimension and then click a figure to associate the dim to the figure and move on.

Change the way the Hole Tool starts up and exits (view orientation)
You've all seen the double view shift wonky behavior.

Automatically toggle "Assy Regenerate" when editing a part in context

Snapping for Dimension and Select tools

Clearer way to exit sketch mode, part editing, etc.

Option for View Rotation Sensitivity

Need to improve aligning of dimension lines in 2D Drawings
 
Last edited:
Top