SSD pros & cons

[Alexander]

My workstation is now on its last legs and I have been configuring a new system to purchase.
I was thinking of an internal SSD and using it for my m-files, GD etc. My concern is reliability and what are the advantages.
Also for the CPU, was thinking of the 4th gen I7 or an equivalent Xeon..... ?

 

[PPi]

For what it's worth, I have experienced that running your OS (or other programs) on SSD gives a great deal of speedup for OS related operations, e.g. you will notice the difference when booting up and loading programs. But as for file a storage, I'm not sure if it gives much of advantage unless the disk is heavily in use. My current laptop improved a great deal with SSD disk and wouldn't change it back.

 

[fabcadmz]

I also had questions about SSD's , so on my new system I got an SSD (drive C and a 550GB 10,000 RPM hard disk (drive D. Boot times, program installs, and program load times are lightning fast from the SSD.
All my data files are on drive DAlibre parts, assemblies, pictures, etc...). I tested load times on a few large part and assembly files from drive C: vs. D: and the SSD was only a few seconds faster (26sec for the SSD vs. 28.5 sec for the HD).
The processer is an overclocked i7-3930K which handles the job well (really, really well with Keyshot )

 

[Alexander]

Thanks guys,

The file load times being only slightly faster is a bit disappointing but the boot times have convinced me to purchase one, think a 128g one will be enough for my OS and main programs.
Not sure about the CPU yet, I have Xeon at the moment (since 2008) and it has been great, no issues at all apart from it is to slow now 2.2ghz. I have heard the I7's are good for rendering which is what I want.
Also I believe a good motherboard is important, not sure why, can't say I am an expert on the hardware stuff :roll:

Thanks

 

[DM8761]

Yes a good motherboard is key, bout anything from the gaming/video eiditing community would be good, i prefer ASUS.

My setup is a bit complicated/silly... its a RAID 1+0

2- Corsair 120GB, Neutron GTX SSD, which mirror them selves to two WD 500GB HDD incase there is ever an SSD failure, this is just for OS and program installs.
1- WD velociraptor 10k 6gb/s500GB what i call my "work drive" Alibre files, video files, pictures ect..
1- some old something out of a Dell big box type, i use it to store my music on

I would mention that my system has 32GB RAM, 24 of which is (usually) allocated to my "ram disk"

 

[fabcadmz]

The guy I got my workstation from told me the Xeon is better for lots of multi-threading compared to the i7. I don't do a lot of rendering, but the i7 has enough horsepower to handle Keyshot very well. I was also told the motherboard plays an important role in speed of read\write operations.
The system I got:
processer - i7-3930K @ 3.20 GHz
Motherboard - Asus Sabertooth X79
Graphics - Nvidea Quadro K5000
Memory - 32 GB
Disk - 223 GB Corsair Neutron GTX SSD
- 558 GB Western Digital 10k RPM Hard Drive
This workstation is the "cream of the crop" I was told by the computer guy. I don't know enough about computer hardware to prove him right or wrong, but I do know this computer is fast :wink:

 

[simonb65]

Having done a lot of embedded electronics using flash based storage, I can only say that having just a SSD in a machine that your doing lots of file changes on is going to cause you problems at some point (a firmware engineer friend of mine found out the hard way after constantly compiling his source code, the SSD failed because of exceeding the erase/write cycles!)

All flash based devices (and a SSD is made up of them) have a limited number of erase/write cycles (usually about 100,000 per block or sector). The point at which you reach this limit is based on how big the erase blocks are, how frequently the blocks get erased and how good the flash chips are at managing that load by balancing the erase/write around the chip to prevent 'burning' out one part of the chip.

Now saying that, HDD's suffer failures of the magnetic surface and the disk controller does a neat job of mapping those out. But generally the write cycle on a HDD is much. much higher and the larger capacities mean the overall percentage of bad blocks is insignificant.

So, I would recommend a SSD for the stuff that is mostly read, i.e. the core OS and I would also recommend that you use a HDD for your data (preferably 2 or 3 in a RAID configuration). This gives the best of both worlds. Fast start up and high data reliability

 

[Alexander]

So, I would recommend a SSD for the stuff that is mostly read, i.e. the core OS and I would also recommend that you use a HDD for your data (preferably 2 or 3 in a RAID configuration). This gives the best of both worlds. Fast start up and high data reliability

I think this is the way I will go, thanks. But I don't understand "2 or 3 in a RAID configuration" do you mean buy 3 separate hard drives backing up each other?

Just been speaking to SCAN (UK hardware shop) and they do not recommend a Geoforce GPU for CAD work especially Autodesk as they are not certified like the Quadro cards. I have heard this before and disagree, I used to have a Quadro but upgraded to a GTX680 (which will be used in my new system) purely because they are so much cheaper and I have had no problems. Even on this forum I read that a gaming card is great for GD....

Thanks guys

 

[DavidJ]

Correct, little or no benefit in expensive Quadro cards for Geomagic Design. A few people have even reported major problems with them.

A budget gaming card should work OK - you'll get some benefit from higher end card, but 3D CAD is typically less demanding than 3D video gaming.

 

[BobSchaefer]

As a computer geek in real life (and actually a software developer to boot!) let me chime in on some things:
First, the Xeon vs. i7 thing, go for the i7, the Xeon is optimized to run a server where things like noise level and power consumption are less of a concern, so you'll have more heat and noise with a Xeon with little improvement over an i7. Not to mention the price difference.
Next, Quadro vs. GeForce, go with the GeForce, GD uses DirectX not OpenGL. The Quadro is optimized for OpenGL and actually does worse on DirectX than the GeForce. (and similarly reversed for the GeForce)
As to the motherboard, just go for a nice name brand board and not a cheap board. It helps with speed mostly because it has the Sata controller on it, the memory layout on it, the voltage regulators, and things like that. The memory controller is actually built into the CPU these days (at least on the AMD, I think Intel is the same) and the rest of the communication is handled by the motherboard.

When Simon was talking about 2 or 3 HDDs in a RAID configuration, you're partially correct, he does mean buy 2 or 3 hard drives, but they're not necessarily a backup of each other. There are several different RAID configurations and levels. It all depends on what you're after, speed, size or reliability. You can pick two, but not three of those choices. You're best off doing a google of RAID levels to get more details to the trade-offs of each level. In your particular case, RAID 1 is probably the best, it needs two drives and makes one a mirror of the other. You don't really get a speed improvement or get more space, but you do increase your reliability.

So. does all this help clear some things up for you?

 

[Alexander]

So. does all this help clear some things up for you?

It certainly does, thank you very much.

Reliability is the key priority for this system which is my primary workstation (my bread & butter)
Further to everyone's input this is my system spec at the moment:

Motherboard - Asus Z87-K, Intel Z87 Chipset
CPU - Intel Core i7 4770K, Haswell, 3.5GHz, Quad Core with HT, 8MB Cache
CPU Cooler - Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro V2
RAM - 16GB Total (2x8GB) Corsair Vengeance LP, 1600MHz
Graphics Card - GeForce GTX680
SSD - 120GB Intel 520 Series, Read 550MB/s, Write 500MB/s
HD - 1TB Seagate Barracuda, SATA 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64Mb Cache

I will does some research on the RAID levels.

Hopefully this system will be good for a number of years.......

Thanks again

 

[DM8761]

This may just be preference... but i would look at the ASUS sabertooth for the MOBO. There is little baby fans built in above each bridge and all the extra shielding really makes the computer easier to clean and good for airflow (long term relibility)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813131976

Also for the RAM you would get slightly better using 4 x 2gbs sticks instead of two 4's, corsair is good stuff though, also if you havent yet, i would look in to the ram disking, which you would want more RAM to allocate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_drive

 

[Alexander]

DM8761, the Asus Sabertooth looks good thanks. Need to read up about the Ram drive....
Just noticed your system spec, WOW :shock: you have some serious hardware, 3 x 36" monitors !! What are you controlling, the Starship Enterprise (sarcastic smilie)

Slightly going of topic here but has anyone built there own system, I was initially going to get the shop to do this. Think I'll price all the parts up and see if it is cheaper.

 

[DavidJ]

Not really much cheaper to build own - but you can decide exactly what to include.

 

[bigseb]

Slightly going of topic here but has anyone built there own system, I was initially going to get the shop to do this. Think I'll price all the parts up and see if it is cheaper.

I built my own rig. Hand picked everything from scratch. Ended up being a lot cheaper (approx R5000) cheaper than a similar store bought rig. Right now I have: i7-quad core @ 3GHz, Intel Whitesburg mobo, 4x2Gb Kingston DDR3, WD 1Tb HDD, Nvidia GTS250, Phillips 22" and Coolermaster HAF920. Can't remember the PSU, just that its 850W. Throw in Windows 7 Professional and a mouse and keyboard and it cost R9700. So I paid about 2/3's of the store price.

 

[DM8761]

DM8761, the Asus Sabertooth looks good thanks. Need to read up about the Ram drive....
Just noticed your system spec, WOW :shock: you have some serious hardware, 3 x 36" monitors !! What are you controlling, the Starship Enterprise (sarcastic smilie)

Slightly going of topic here but has anyone built there own system, I was initially going to get the shop to do this. Think I'll price all the parts up and see if it is cheaper.

Haha, nope no Enterprise... would need touch screens for that, and that would make a sweet desktop theme :roll: . im kinda a seasonal hard core gamer. Winters in Nebraska are no fun.

Just get some Youtube University, and youll be a build hero over the weekend, i followed these guys pretty closely, had zero problems, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPIXAtNGGCw 3 videos total.

And yeah, physicially putting a computer together is ridiculously easy... when i did it for the first time i was honesty dissipointed after i finished, for some reason i was hopping it would be a challenge. I got everything ready... cleared off the dining room table, set up some extra lights, gave the dog a bone and put him outside, and sent the wifey to get groceries. Put on some 90's alternative rock, Unwraped all the parts, layed them out all nice and pretty... and then... bam!! done. No Joke, less than an hour of actually putting parts together. plugged in the power supply, pressed the go button, got the POST beep. Setup the RAID controller, restart it, installed windows, installed drivers (super easy with ASUS), updated windows, update drivers... Done.

Build time bout an hour, updating windows.. 2 days. But yeah that sense of accomplisment when it POSTS for the first time is pretty enjoyable. And the best part is you can laugh at people that spend twice as much at Dell, Bestbuy for half the computer.

 

[DM8761]

So. does all this help clear some things up for you?

It certainly does, thank you very much.

Reliability is the key priority for this system which is my primary workstation (my bread & butter)
Further to everyone's input this is my system spec at the moment:

Motherboard - Asus Z87-K, Intel Z87 Chipset
CPU - Intel Core i7 4770K, Haswell, 3.5GHz, Quad Core with HT, 8MB Cache
CPU Cooler - Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro V2
RAM - 16GB Total (2x8GB) Corsair Vengeance LP, 1600MHz
Graphics Card - GeForce GTX680
SSD - 120GB Intel 520 Series, Read 550MB/s, Write 500MB/s
HD - 1TB Seagate Barracuda, SATA 6Gb/s, 7200rpm, 64Mb Cache

I will does some research on the RAID levels.

Hopefully this system will be good for a number of years.......

Thanks again

Something else, if your not going to overclock, the stock CPU fan will be plenty, i know the fan you have speced is only like 20 bucks, but there is a chance it could interfere with the RAM you have selected. the vengence series stand up pretty tall (dont get the LP's, they get too hot). I would suggest a different CPU cooler one that doesnt have a giant fan hanging off to one side or just go with the one that comes with the CPU.

 

[DM8761]

and yes.. i am incredibly bored at work today

 

[srjacob]

I wanted speed and a great deal of redundancy, so I got a Samsung 840 256GB SSD for the boot, Windows 7, and program files (C drive), and a hardware (on board) RAID1 with two 2GB Western Digital RE4 drives for data (D drive). I use an in-memory cache to cache the D drive, and it gets really fast (the cache software is http://www.superspeed.com/download/trialversions.php). I have 64GB of ram, and 1/2 of that is devoted to the cache.

With regards to the Graphic adapter, when I built this machine, I used a Quadro K4000 instead of a GEForce 570. The Quadro is much faster for other work I am doing, but I use 3 monitors. Why 3? For GM, I can put two different parts or assemblies on different monitors (and work between them), and use the third monitor for help files, email, etc. For other apps, you can make one monitor all of your workspace, and put menus, dockers, toolbars, etc. on the other monitor. You get really spoiled with this. The monitors are inexpensive monitors, and the Quadro can support all three. If you go with a GeForce card, it can only support 2 monitors, and then you have other problems with the third (multiple cards, SLI, etc.).

For the rest of the system, I have a Supermicro X9DAi motherboard with 2 Xeon 2670 processors (2.6 Ghz), 64 GB of memory in a Coolermaster HAF RC-922XM chassis and a Coolermaster Silent Pro 1500W power supply.

The HAF case uses big fans that run slowly, generating very little noise. The really big power supply really runs at about 1/2 capacity, so the fans in it turn slowly. The result is a really quiet system where the processors don't get much above 40 degrees C under very high load. This system is REALLY REALLY quiet.

How fast is this beast? When running GM, Vectorworks, Photoshop, Corel Draw, ABBYY OCR, and other CPU intensive apps, there is no appreciable lag between a keystroke or mouse click and the results of the process. It will process data nearly as fast as it can read it into memory, and it will rip a DVD as fast as it can read the disk into memory.

If you really want to protect valuable models and other data, get a Synology 1512+ NAS (http://www.synology.com/products/produc ... 2B&lang=us) and populate it full of disks. You can set up a modified RAID so that you have a 2 disk redundancy (2 disks can fail and no data is lost). It also comes with software that allows you to mirror folders or entire drives from your main machine onto the NAS. Commercial photographers use this for their vault for digital photos.

Good luck.

Steve

 

[Alexander]

Hi Steve, thanks for your input.

I have ordered a system which is at the limits of my budget but happy that I have a future proofed station for another 4-5 years, for the type of work I am currently doing anyway.
Similar to yours I have ordered the Samsung 840 pro SSD but a 128GB with 2x 1TB Western Digital Caviar Green drives in a Raid 1 configuration. I am seriously considering changing the SSD to a 256GB thinking I won't have enough space for Windows 7 and my C drive, do you know how much space Windows 7 takes up?
The cache you mention is something I need to have a look at, thanks for the info.
The graphics card I already have is a GeForce GTX680 which can run 4 screens of high end gaming, I am using 3 at the moment and agree its great having menu's, toolbars etc to hand. Much more productive and find I don't print documents half as much.
As well as the internal Raid 1, I have also got an external 2TB WD Hard drive which constantly updates files, this I put in my safe every night (in-case of a fire). Also being on the paranoid side I have a 128GB Kingston USB 3.0 dongle which I carry with me everywhere, this has all of my M-Files work and other important stuff.

Thanks again.