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Traditional File question for Alibre

Uman

Senior Member
ralf3 said:
NateLiqGrav said:
I don't know where Ralf got that info as I searched all over and found nothing stating that. But that is not important. From my understanding Traditional Folders are just another meta data with some special treatment.

Something to think about. Your entire operating system works just like M-Files. Everything is stored in the same place. A database keeps tract of what file is where. Your OS may or may not index files based on your search settings. This index is another database about your files. What do you see? Folders.

Phoenixgs, sorry for the somewhat off topic post.

Nate, I have that info:
- I was in Helsinki at a M-Files seminar/training, a few months ago.
- There was quite clearly said, a folder structure is not recommended and not supported. ( But possible with restrictions )
- I work daily with M-Files and other apps. with SQL-Server based apps.
- M-Files/Alibre Vault Support for our German Alibre customers.
- During the German localization process of M-Files, I had intensive contact with colleagues/developers from M-Files.

I am a definite fan of M-Files.
I am against prejudices of all kinds.

BUT also I have absolute sympathy for questions/fears from other users here.
We are talking here about the corporate ownership of data, important enough to get the clarity before.

I thought this was an important discussion, so I started a new topic.

Many of us have Traditional file setup in our Vault, but I am afraid there may be a latent consequence to this file structure, as Ralf has implied.

My question is simple and the answer should be made available to the entire forum.

Does Alibre Design approve of the Traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault?


Jeff in Florida
 

Uman

Senior Member
Still waiting to set up my Alibre Vault, but still have no guidance from Alibre about the Traditional file structure.

I have sent emails and PM to Max and associates to respond, but they remain silent.

Alibre please provide a clear answer to the Traditional structure question on this forum.

Thanks,
Jeff in Florida
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
This is just my own response - I don't mean to criticise or disagree with anyone. I attended training at Motive Systems recently - Ralf is correct to say they discourage the use of 'traditional folders'.

Taking this in a more general 'document management' sense, I understood this to be because the real power/potential of M-Files comes from forgetting the file structure, this change of mindset is the biggest hurdle for users so Motive don't want users to be confused by saying one the one hand 'forget folder structures' but on the other 'you can have traditional folders'.

The 'traditional folders' capability is occasionally useful - I don't believe it causes any particular technical problems for the M-Files software. If I've got that wrong. I am more than happy to be corrected!
 

Ralf

Alibre Super User
I agree with David and a "Bavarian" would say: The usage of M-Files with a "Traditional file structure" is like a "Posche Carrera GT with a trailer ". :wink:
 

Uman

Senior Member
DavidJ said:
The 'traditional folders' capability is occasionally useful - I don't believe it causes any particular technical problems for the M-Files software. If I've got that wrong. I am more than happy to be corrected!

That is the problem, Alibre has not inform us if there is a problem or condition with this Vault structure. I appreciate your point Ralf, but I prefer the traditional file structure myself and if there is nothing wrong with it, I would simply like to use it. There are threads on this forum on how to setup traditional file structure in the "Vault How to and Hints". If this is wrong, Alibre should say so....and pull it from the "Vault How to and Hints" section.

Alibre please advise
 

Ralf

Alibre Super User
Hi Jeff,

There are only a few simple steps, to use your existing folder with M-Files.
I will try to explain. (David if I say English nonsense, please correct me :wink: )

- Start M-Files Server Admin
- Document Vaults
- Alibre
- Connection to External Sources
- Files Sources
- New File Source...
- Connection Properties -New Connection to External Source
-
 

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Ralf

Alibre Super User
...next steps
 

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Ralf

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...next steps...
 

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Ralf

Alibre Super User
Jeff, these are the basic steps and after 10 minutes you can use your existing folder as external source.
I would recommend: Make a backup of your exist. folder(s), and then you can give M-Files a broadside. :lol:

Btw:
Dont worry, because:To force M-Files to it`s knees ... you have to destroy the hardware...
 

DavidJ

Administrator
Staff member
The 'Traditional Folders' approach is supported and documented by Motive Systems. On the course I attended there was no mention of any technical reason not to use it, in fact there were I think a couple of examples of when you might want to use it.

The only reason for not encouraging it's widespread use was to avoid user confusion, and to try to switch user thinking away from folder hierarchy and instead to think of Meta Data.

The Alibre Vault implementation only begins to scratch the surface of what is possible with M-Files, but you have all the power available to you if you wish to exploit it with additional configuration to match the way your organisation works, or to use beyond CAD.
 

swertel

Alibre Super User
The whole point in using a PDM database is to not have to worry about the "traditional" file system that M$ has turned into the de-factor standard via windows explorer. Folder hierarchy may be great for Windows, but it is terrible for CAD and any files that have links between them.

M-Files, and the Alibre Vault, are a flat database structure. You store everything in one single folder and search for the part you want. If you have similar groupings of files, then give them similar meta-data to be able to group them by that field. If you forget about Windows methodology for a while and learn the PDM system, you will be much happier with the performance.

But, Alibre is silent on the issue, in my opinion, because it is up the the user to determine their own best practices for file management. That has nothing to do with the CAD software side of the house. If the folder hierarchy is something you want to do, then do it. If you need help deciding which is the best way, then hire a consultant experienced in such matters.
 

Uman

Senior Member
In case it got lost in the thread. Here is the question again for Alibre to answer.

Does Alibre Design approve of the Traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault?


I just want clear direction before I set my Alibre Vault up to prevent future disaster.
Please give us guidance Alibre.

thanks,
Jeff in Florida
 

swertel

Alibre Super User
Uman said:
In case it got lost in the thread. Here is the question again for Alibre to answer.

Does Alibre Design approve of the Traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault?


I just want clear direction before I set my Alibre Vault up to prevent future disaster.
Please give us guidance Alibre.

thanks,
Jeff in Florida

How you manage your files is your own business, not Alibre's. You need to set up your own best practices that fit your current policies and standard operating procedures. If you are unfamiliar with setting up the Vault, or need direction in defining best practices for your company, you need to hire a consultant. M-Files does supply consultants for just this purpose. You can contact them. Asking direction from a CAD vendor on a public user group about internal corporate policy/practice will not solicit a response.

That means you can either:
a) Continue posting here and ask other Alibre users for their best practices and insight (which you already have plenty of information on).
b) Request Alibre set you up with an Alibre consultant capable of developing a policy for your business.
c) Request M-Files set you up with a consultant to come in and set up the PDM system for you.

I can tell you right now that no one, including yourself, will be able to plan for all changes that may happen in the future. Setting up the Vault one way now, even if it is a best practice, may not work 5 years from now and you will be forced into revising the structure. And you need not worry about data loss, that's what back-ups are for. What you need to worry about is the time and effort it will take to migrate from WFS to M-Files to a new M-Files structure. If that seems like something that is too difficult for you to swallow, then running/managing a database for your file management is probably not within your best interest. You may be better off keeping in the Windows File System. That is also something that a good consultant could help you determine.
 

MikeHenry

Alibre Super User
Maybe I'm reading the thread wrong, but it seems to me that Uman is just asking if he can use the traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault without creating software-related problems for himself down the road. Maybe he is worried that Alibre/Vault upgrades and/or feature shift will make that approach unworkable at some future point.

Mike
 

swertel

Alibre Super User
MikeHenry said:
Maybe I'm reading the thread wrong, but it seems to me that Uman is just asking if he can use the traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault without creating software-related problems for himself down the road. Maybe he is worried that Alibre/Vault upgrades and/or feature shift will make that approach unworkable at some future point.

Mike

Perhaps a clarification, or rephrasing of the question, is in order.
The Vault is just a database. It is managed just like any other relational database and Uman can set it up with any structure he wants. They are just fields and tables within the database. All upgrades to a bolt-on system like the Vault is to Alibre Design will lead to extra effort to check and verify its integrity. But the database will always consist of tables and fields that can be migrated from one database to another.

But, trying to mimic the Windows hierarchy (folder structure) in a database is one of the worst ways to set up a relational database. It can be done, but is there really any benefit to it, especially compared to all the value you would lose? Use the Vault for the power of a relational database; use Windows File Structure if you want a hierarchy.
 

Uman

Senior Member
Does Alibre Design approve of the Traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault?

This is a software performance based/capability question. This question is not asking how to set up Alibre Vault, what the best practices are, nor soliciting file management consultation....no more smoke and distractions.

I am the company owner and I have a license to Alibre Vault and I want to make use of it. Company files are paramount and not to be at risk of second hand information. If Alibre does not recommend Alibre Vault for this structure, then say so.

Alibre here is the dilemma:
1. Apparently Traditional File system is an optional way to set up Alibre Vault; reference Vault How to and Hints
2. Several forum users have attended M-file seminars and stated Traditional File structure is not recommended or supported
3. Forum messages indicate many Alibre Vault users are structured with Traditional Files...are they at risk?
4. If Traditional File structure is not recommended, why does Alibre allow it in the "Vault How to and Hints" section of their forum.

Scott - don't take this badly, but please give Alibre a chance to step up to the plate and provide guidance. If they choose to remain silent, the consequences will remain to be seen.

Jeff in Florida
 

swertel

Alibre Super User
Jeff, no offense taken. Just trying to make sure we're all on the same page as to expectations.

Once more unto the breach...
The most likely reason, since I can't and don't speak directly for Alibre, is that the Traditional File structure is there since it is possible. Much like all training aids and tips, just because it is possible doesn't mean it is recommended. Alibre has an obligation, in my opinion, to show users what the software is capable of. They are not obligated to tell us if it is the right or wrong way to do something. Hence my points above.

Take recommended hardware for example.
All CAD programs publish a recommended minimum system requirements. I think we have all experienced that those minimum requirements are not suitable for efficient, production level work. It'll run, but not well. Showing the Traditional structure proves that it will run, but maybe not well.

Jeff, if you want an official reply from Alibre, make sure you submit an incident report. This is the user group. Alibre personnel are nice enough to host this website and visit from time to time, but they are under no obligation to respond to any posts. If you require a response, the incident request system is your best option.
 

wfpelletier

Senior Member
This is a very interesting topic, and I thought I would throw in my $0.02. I can only speak as a user of Alibre and M-Files, and obviously cannot give an 'official' answer. From reading the M-files literature, I get the impression that the reason the M-files has a 'traditional file' structure was to provide a means of transition to move files from the Windows File System into M-Files. My guess is that the M-Files designers thought that users would perhaps first transition files from the Windows File System into 'traditional folders' in M-Files, and then add meta-data (project, customer, etc.) to the files after that initial transition. This is just guesswork on my part.

I believe that using the traditional file structure in the Vault is probably not the most optimum way of using the Vault. However, I have a lot of trouble thinking that it could cause any long-term problems. A traditional file location in the Vault is just another piece of meta-data for a file stored in the Vault. Why should this particular type of meta-data cause any problems vs. other types of meta-data (project, customer, etc.)?

(I was also quite puzzled that the Alibre Data Migration tool did not transition files into the Vault using the traditional file structure of M-Files. I think if the Data Migration tool moved files from the old repository or the WFS into traditional folders in the Vault, many users would have been much happier. After the transition into traditional folders, users could create their own meta-data structure over time, and I think it would have been a much smoother transition.)

The one very nasty thing I do not like about using traditional file data in the Vault is that if a traditional folder is deleted, all files associated with that folder are also deleted. I don't recall if M-files even gives you a warning about this when you delete a traditional folder, but I think that using the traditional file structure in the Vault makes it very easy to delete a large number of files accidentally. (On the other hand, if you were to delete a project, the files associated with that project do not get deleted.) This is one reason I do not use the traditional file structure in the Vault.

When I used to use the repository, I did tend to create folders for assemblies, parts, hardware, etc. For myself, I find that when using the Vault, I do not need such folders. For example, I have a view in the M-Files explorer that shows just the assemblies for a given project. In the window that shows the assemblies, there is an arrow next to the assembly that I can click that shows what parts and sub-assemblies make up the assembly. (I can also see where that assembly is used in another assembly.) I find that this makes it easy to negotiate the hierarchy of an assembly or part, and I think it is even easier than the traditional file structure.

wfpelletier
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
swertel said:
Jeff, if you want an official reply from Alibre, make sure you submit an incident report. This is the user group. Alibre personnel are nice enough to host this website and visit from time to time, but they are under no obligation to respond to any posts. If you require a response, the incident request system is your best option.

This is true. We try our best to respond to forum posts, but we do not always have the ability to do so. If you need an immediate or official response, please call or enter a ticket with our Support Team (972-671-8492 option 4, support@alibre.com, or use our web entry: https://www.alibre.com/training_support/incidentnewsf.aspx).

Uman said:
Does Alibre Design approve of the Traditional file structure in the Alibre Vault?

Alibre works fine with the traditional file structure in the Vault. If you were recommended not to use the traditional file structure, it was probably because when users go directly to the traditional folder structure in the vault, they are much less likely to effectively use MetaData. While the Vault can be used for standard file storage, it is the functionality of the MetaData that makes M-Files unique. However, experienced M-Files users can use the traditional folder structure and metadata together. It is possible to have a file stored in a specific "folder" but still apply MetaData to it. This would allow access to the file from the standard folder structure or the custom metadata view filters.

The only limitation to customizing your vault is in the MetaData Structure. This limitation is clearly explained in the Vault Installation doc that is available on our downloads page. The 'Alibre Vault' that is provided on install contains specific MetaData that is designed to work with Alibre. If this MetaData is modified or deleted, you may lose some functionality from the Vault. The vault will still function, but you would lose the ability to project MetaData to your Drawing or BOM. Creating new MetaData properties should not cause any problems with the Alibre Vault.

I hope this helps. Please call if you have any more questions.
 
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