Lew_Merrick
Guest
Neither is Alibre. It allows the use of variables that may be defined at either a Local or Project level, but such things do not meet the mathematical definition of parametric. Please, let us be clear on this point!JST said:
Differences between Alibre and other CAD, Fusion etc?
- Thread starter JST
- Start date
JST
Alibre Super User
Lew_Merrick said:
OK, TC is "even less" parametric than Alibre, as far as I can determine, in the sense generally used when discussing CAD..
However, your definition is a reference to rigorous mathematical definition, but that is not exactly how the terms are used in describing CAD.
They are RELATED, since in the case of a circle drawn in CAD, the radius "parameter" used in the mathematical definition as a "driver", is related to the circle diameter used in CAD as a "driver" for the circle. No doubt the definition of a circle is used WITH the "driving parameter" (D/2) to create the circle. Similarly with offsetting a circle, the offset distance is entered into the equation for the circle to offset the center of it.
However:
Typically, a program called a "parametric modeling" program will have a set of dimensions etc that define the shape of the model. And, those will be editable and related either explicitly or implicitly, so that when one is changed, others which were not set to specific numbers will change in turn to accommodate the changed dimension. For instance, if the object is a cone, changing the height to the apex will change the cone angle.
In those described as "non-parametric", the dimensions exist, but they are substantially independent. So one has to individually change every dimension relating to the change. To change a 2D projection of a come in classic drafting programs, you would have to change all three lines that form the outline, often by erasing and re-drawing.
TC appears to belong to the class commonly known as "non-parametric", while Alibre clearly belongs to the class commonly termed "parametric".
bigseb
Alibre Super User
Just an update here:
nvanlaar offered to go through one of my files on Fusion to test its capabilities. Unfortunately, due to the way Fusion operates I may not share any information.
So, in a way its asked and answered. True I would like to have seen what it can do in terms functionality but in the end our clients (mainly automotive) will not permit it. So I doubt Fusion will be taking industry by storm.
Anyway, a big thank you to Nick. Cheers, mate.
nvanlaar offered to go through one of my files on Fusion to test its capabilities. Unfortunately, due to the way Fusion operates I may not share any information.
So, in a way its asked and answered. True I would like to have seen what it can do in terms functionality but in the end our clients (mainly automotive) will not permit it. So I doubt Fusion will be taking industry by storm.
Anyway, a big thank you to Nick. Cheers, mate.
Mika
Senior Member
Ubuntu was kinda good comparison... I have tried fusion360 many times and every time when I'll try to do something, I cannot do it. Always have to think a fusion360 way, I cannot just concentrate to designing.
Fusion is lagging all the time, no matter how fast my computer or network is. Assembly modeling "joints" are from hell, and file management in a360 is also really painfull. Rendering also pays some cloudpoints... After a many tries I have given up with Fusion360, it eats my nerves really badly.
Alibre is lightweight, easy to use, comes bundled with keyshot...there's just a many reasons why it's million times better choice.
Fusion is lagging all the time, no matter how fast my computer or network is. Assembly modeling "joints" are from hell, and file management in a360 is also really painfull. Rendering also pays some cloudpoints... After a many tries I have given up with Fusion360, it eats my nerves really badly.
Alibre is lightweight, easy to use, comes bundled with keyshot...there's just a many reasons why it's million times better choice.
nvanlaar
Senior Member
Mika said:
To each his own.
That has not been my experience at all. As far as the joints go, they are nothing like a constraint and cannot be treated like one. Switching to any other CAD package has a certain amount of growing pains. I had lost all hope in Geomagic and transitioned over to Fusion as an viable option. I got used to it. Now, I'll keep my Alibre current and keep using Fusion as well. I like to keep up on different systems for job security and versatility. Sometimes I know a particular task is easier in one package or another and use accordingly.
nvanlaar said:
I am in the same category. CAD programs are just tools, like any other in the toolbox. I use the best tool for the job. There are things I like about TC. I am very familiar with it & it is easy to do 2D drawings & I can easily export to dxf & dwg if need be. I do have a licensed copy of AC LT2014, that I verify my dwg exports from TC in before I send them out. I just never did like drawing in AC. I do not model in 3D as much in TC, but it is a very capable 3D modelling tool. When I build a feed screw for on of my machines, Alibre all the way, & now, the CAM program stays with the file. I have found modelling in Fusion to be very fast & very intuitive. I may move all of my 3D work & assemblies over to Alibre, but for now, I have projects I am invested in & will stick with what I am doing. Future projects I will possibly move to Alibre, but that will be a process.
I like Alibre, I have used it since 2006 (V7?) and I think it's one of the best and easy to learn traditional cads on market - in it's price class +-100%.
Just out of curiosity few questions to people who think cloud is satan's plan to steel your data
- Do you think your local $100 hardrive with that 5year old usb drive backup is safer than for example Amazon servers (where Onshape data is stored)?
- Any modern cad has licensing server that defines whether you can access your own files or not. I suppose it doesn't help that much to have the data in you local harddrive if you can't access it?
- Many people store their cad data into dropbox or similar to access anywhere. Isn't that in cloud too?
- If you can access and edit your data in local server remotely, is that same as posting your files to this forum?
- Do you use email or internet often, that is the cloud, dude..
Cloud CADs do have export possibilities so if you wan't you can spend all night making local backups and that way create a thread that someone steels your backup files while you sleep.
I have used Onshape for two and a half years now, my greatest reliefs have been:
- no crashes, not a single crash that takes an hour to re-install and lose work due to poor saving schedule.. just few browser refreshes and data is always saved
- no installation, never. Just reveal every few weeks that you got some new functionality, immediately in use in all your computers. No waiting for having all the projects done and safe place to run painful updates to each machine - just to notice there is a major bug and you need to rollback and wait few months for service pack.
- no files. Assemblies work everytime you open them, if you break it, you can always pick a point in history to go back when it worked. If you wan't to show your model, just share a link, no login needed to review and you decide when to stop sharing. If you email a file, it's pretty hard to get it back.
- when I have problem or find a bug, I don't need to send any files and wait weeks for answer. Just two clicks to share whole document with all parts and assemblies with support and include screenshot with your comments. If they are sleeping, another click to create a version for them to investigate the exact moment when you ran into problem. No need to strip down anything and trying to replicate the problem with simplified model that you can fit into email attachment.
It's not (yet) perfect in any way but my concerns are currently in real stuff like wanting a new feature to automate something and save time - not fearing that my cad crashes when I have tight schedule. For me, cloud is the only way to go and currently lightyears ahead of installed cad. If I were behind very bad connection, I would have Alibre and Onshape working together to cover offline working.
On edit: No, I didn't write this offline with my notepad and I didn't save a copy into my local harddrive.
My 2c
Just out of curiosity few questions to people who think cloud is satan's plan to steel your data
- Do you think your local $100 hardrive with that 5year old usb drive backup is safer than for example Amazon servers (where Onshape data is stored)?
- Any modern cad has licensing server that defines whether you can access your own files or not. I suppose it doesn't help that much to have the data in you local harddrive if you can't access it?
- Many people store their cad data into dropbox or similar to access anywhere. Isn't that in cloud too?
- If you can access and edit your data in local server remotely, is that same as posting your files to this forum?
- Do you use email or internet often, that is the cloud, dude..
Cloud CADs do have export possibilities so if you wan't you can spend all night making local backups and that way create a thread that someone steels your backup files while you sleep.
I have used Onshape for two and a half years now, my greatest reliefs have been:
- no crashes, not a single crash that takes an hour to re-install and lose work due to poor saving schedule.. just few browser refreshes and data is always saved
- no installation, never. Just reveal every few weeks that you got some new functionality, immediately in use in all your computers. No waiting for having all the projects done and safe place to run painful updates to each machine - just to notice there is a major bug and you need to rollback and wait few months for service pack.
- no files. Assemblies work everytime you open them, if you break it, you can always pick a point in history to go back when it worked. If you wan't to show your model, just share a link, no login needed to review and you decide when to stop sharing. If you email a file, it's pretty hard to get it back.
- when I have problem or find a bug, I don't need to send any files and wait weeks for answer. Just two clicks to share whole document with all parts and assemblies with support and include screenshot with your comments. If they are sleeping, another click to create a version for them to investigate the exact moment when you ran into problem. No need to strip down anything and trying to replicate the problem with simplified model that you can fit into email attachment.
It's not (yet) perfect in any way but my concerns are currently in real stuff like wanting a new feature to automate something and save time - not fearing that my cad crashes when I have tight schedule. For me, cloud is the only way to go and currently lightyears ahead of installed cad. If I were behind very bad connection, I would have Alibre and Onshape working together to cover offline working.
On edit: No, I didn't write this offline with my notepad and I didn't save a copy into my local harddrive.
My 2c
Mibe
Alibre Super User
3dcad.fi said:I like Alibre, I have used it since 2006 (V7?) and I think it's one of the best and easy to learn traditional cads on market - in it's price class +-100%.
Just out of curiosity few questions to people who think cloud is satan's plan to steel your data
- Do you think your local $100 hardrive with that 5year old usb drive backup is safer than for example Amazon servers (where Onshape data is stored)?
- Any modern cad has licensing server that defines whether you can access your own files or not. I suppose it doesn't help that much to have the data in you local harddrive if you can't access it?
- Many people store their cad data into dropbox or similar to access anywhere. Isn't that in cloud too?
- If you can access and edit your data in local server remotely, is that same as posting your files to this forum?
- Do you use email or internet often, that is the cloud, dude..
Cloud CADs do have export possibilities so if you wan't you can spend all night making local backups and that way create a thread that someone steels your backup files while you sleep.
I have used Onshape for two and a half years now, my greatest reliefs have been:
- no crashes, not a single crash that takes an hour to re-install and lose work due to poor saving schedule.. just few browser refreshes and data is always saved
- no installation, never. Just reveal every few weeks that you got some new functionality, immediately in use in all your computers. No waiting for having all the projects done and safe place to run painful updates to each machine - just to notice there is a major bug and you need to rollback and wait few months for service pack.
- no files. Assemblies work everytime you open them, if you break it, you can always pick a point in history to go back when it worked. If you wan't to show your model, just share a link, no login needed to review and you decide when to stop sharing. If you email a file, it's pretty hard to get it back.
- when I have problem or find a bug, I don't need to send any files and wait weeks for answer. Just two clicks to share whole document with all parts and assemblies with support and include screenshot with your comments. If they are sleeping, another click to create a version for them to investigate the exact moment when you ran into problem. No need to strip down anything and trying to replicate the problem with simplified model that you can fit into email attachment.
It's not (yet) perfect in any way but my concerns are currently in real stuff like wanting a new feature to automate something and save time - not fearing that my cad crashes when I have tight schedule. For me, cloud is the only way to go and currently lightyears ahead of installed cad. If I were behind very bad connection, I would have Alibre and Onshape working together to cover offline working.
On edit: No, I didn't write this offline with my notepad and I didn't save a copy into my local harddrive.
My 2c
- No, the hardrive is not safer but at least you control your own files. Normally you have a backup server or similar. Even a cloud solution. But you work locally. Personally I have not had a HD crash in 12 years.
- No. You use Internet when installing and then there is flexibility within 30 days. Some software has dongles, no need for internet at all.
- Yes, but that is not the norm in business. Personal and hobby use, maybe.
- No it's not. A forum is a passive, one direction posting. A huge assembly, online, is another entity.
- Yes and no. Depending on service etc. Most companies use email servers with traditional IMAP or other configurations, not Gmail (and similar).
Some questions about cloud CAD.
- If you stop paying monthly fees, will you still be able to use it? (traditional cad works)
- your internet connection is down for a few hours. Will you still be able to use it ? (traditional cad works)
Cloud applications has it's advantages, but it's not aimed for business. Some countries (like Germany) practically refuse it in companies if the cloud servers are not inside german borders.
PS. Alibre is not crashing more than a couple of times/year and if it does the restore file is there for you.
simonb65
Alibre Super User
Mibe said:3dcad.fi said:I like Alibre, I have used it since 2006 (V7?) and I think it's one of the best and easy to learn traditional cads on market - in it's price class +-100%.
Just out of curiosity few questions to people who think cloud is satan's plan to steel your data
- Do you think your local $100 hardrive with that 5year old usb drive backup is safer than for example Amazon servers (where Onshape data is stored)?
- Any modern cad has licensing server that defines whether you can access your own files or not. I suppose it doesn't help that much to have the data in you local harddrive if you can't access it?
- Many people store their cad data into dropbox or similar to access anywhere. Isn't that in cloud too?
- If you can access and edit your data in local server remotely, is that same as posting your files to this forum?
- Do you use email or internet often, that is the cloud, dude..
Cloud CADs do have export possibilities so if you wan't you can spend all night making local backups and that way create a thread that someone steels your backup files while you sleep.
I have used Onshape for two and a half years now, my greatest reliefs have been:
- no crashes, not a single crash that takes an hour to re-install and lose work due to poor saving schedule.. just few browser refreshes and data is always saved
- no installation, never. Just reveal every few weeks that you got some new functionality, immediately in use in all your computers. No waiting for having all the projects done and safe place to run painful updates to each machine - just to notice there is a major bug and you need to rollback and wait few months for service pack.
- no files. Assemblies work everytime you open them, if you break it, you can always pick a point in history to go back when it worked. If you wan't to show your model, just share a link, no login needed to review and you decide when to stop sharing. If you email a file, it's pretty hard to get it back.
- when I have problem or find a bug, I don't need to send any files and wait weeks for answer. Just two clicks to share whole document with all parts and assemblies with support and include screenshot with your comments. If they are sleeping, another click to create a version for them to investigate the exact moment when you ran into problem. No need to strip down anything and trying to replicate the problem with simplified model that you can fit into email attachment.
It's not (yet) perfect in any way but my concerns are currently in real stuff like wanting a new feature to automate something and save time - not fearing that my cad crashes when I have tight schedule. For me, cloud is the only way to go and currently lightyears ahead of installed cad. If I were behind very bad connection, I would have Alibre and Onshape working together to cover offline working.
On edit: No, I didn't write this offline with my notepad and I didn't save a copy into my local harddrive.
My 2c
- No, the hardrive is not safer but at least you control your own files. Normally you have a backup server or similar. Even a cloud solution. But you work locally. Personally I have not had a HD crash in 12 years.
- No. You use Internet when installing and then there is flexibility within 30 days. Some software has dongles, no need for internet at all.
- Yes, but that is not the norm in business. Personal and hobby use, maybe.
- No it's not. A forum is a passive, one direction posting. A huge assembly, online, is another entity.
- Yes and no. Depending on service etc. Most companies use email servers with traditional IMAP or other configurations, not Gmail (and similar).
Some questions about cloud CAD.
- If you stop paying monthly fees, will you still be able to use it? (traditional cad works)
- your internet connection is down for a few hours. Will you still be able to use it ? (traditional cad works)
Cloud applications has it's advantages, but it's not aimed for business. Some countries (like Germany) practically refuse it in companies if the cloud servers are not inside german borders.
PS. Alibre is not crashing more than a couple of times/year and if it does the restore file is there for you.
Most medium/large companies don't use cloud storage for security reasons. It is tempting to outsource storage though so as to put the up-time and maintenance responsibilities onto a third party, but this BIG benefit is usually overshadowed and stopped by data security.
There is also the customer! I have found that some companies won't do business, when you tell them during your software audit, that you use the cloud! They have the same data protection and security concerns also.
Your better investing in a local storage system with RAID mirror or preferably striping and backing that up to an offsite location that is still accessible, BUT NOT a public cloud in the event of fire, etc. Some customers set up a VPN to back their data up from my servers to their site ... but all the work is still done LOCALLY on my network and just I'm a one-man outfit!
Part of those software audits is also about toolchains and how you manage software upgrades to guarantee that the output data and any calculations that are done within that application ... that is something that you can't validate or demonstrate if the application is a cloud based one and changes every other day! Again, the reason why large corporations are still on Win XP/Win7. If you generate a model with version X then open that model in 5 years time will it still generate the SAME model? Having an application lets you install the version (if required) that the model was originally created in. Probably more specific to software compilation than CAD models I know, but the tractability and audit trail requirements are still the same and IS required by certain customers. I have apps on my phone that "upgrade", but sometimes break stuff! I CAN'T roll back a version, I have to wait until they fix it ... That could men days or weeks of non-productivity with a CAD tool. Why would you risk that? Regarding the OnShape updates, how much have they been tested? or are you the tester??? ...and at what potential cost and risk is that to your business? for a new feature you may not even need/use!
On the subject of mail, I also run my own mail server, not difficult to setup up, but the data is stored on my server, so access to it is controlled by me.
The only thing I have hosted off-site (cloud?!) is my website, that's because of its access from the web (speed, up-time, etc) ... but no company/customer confidential/critical data is stored there, its just a shop window/calling card.
On an end note, there was a famous photographer a few years ago that used his wifi equipped SLR to upload everything onto a cloud service, presumably for ease of access and sharing ... unfortunately that cloud service went bust overnight and just pulled the plug on their servers and he lost EVERYTHING. Now, I'm not saying that will happen to Google, Microsoft or Apple, but their Terms and Conditions change frequently and that is never in your favour and more and more often that is to allow then to do what they want (and sometimes claim OWNERSHIP!) of your data ... JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
So the trade off is EASE OF ACCESS/UP-TIME/NO HARDWARE MAINTENANCE vs OWNERSHIP/ACCESS SPEED/SECURITY/BACKUP&RESTORE CONTROL ... you make the choice that suits you, your clients and your business better.
** But you do know that any harddrive age more than 12 months is a risk, so if you have primary drive with raid mirror + backup thats 4 drives. Yearly cost ca. $400 + bother to exchange them.Mibe said:
...
Some questions about cloud CAD.
- If you stop paying monthly fees, will you still be able to use it? (traditional cad works)
** I only know Onshape but as it is the only full cloud cad the answer would be yes. But in read only mode, you can view and export all your stuff but not edit, once you pay you get immediate edit rights. Remember that you don't need to pay for buying the software or extra fees for getting back in. And while you are limited to single expensive workstation with traditional cad, cloud gives you possibility to work with cheap chromebook and as many devices simultaneously as you wish.
- your internet connection is down for a few hours. Will you still be able to use it ? (traditional cad works)
**You can easily estblish your connection using your phone to share one. Of course this is something you need to prepare if using cloud solutions, I have fiber with 4G backup and laptop with separate 4G + tablet + phone. And I live/work in area where lines are pretty good and reliable.
Cloud applications has it's advantages, but it's not aimed for business. Some countries (like Germany) practically refuse it in companies if the cloud servers are not inside german borders.
**Yep, I once needed to send 39Mb video to German machine manufacturer, youtube - no, dropbox - no, gmail - 30mb limit; the ultimate solution was to mail a cd. If they wan't to do things like that, it's their fault. World around is going forward. It's just this generation that can't let go of the past.
I'm sure someone has once said: Computer has it's advantages, but it's not aimed for business.
PS. Alibre is not crashing more than a couple of times/year and if it does the restore file is there for you.
They made signifigant improvement on this around v12, but it still happens. The biggest issue for me was assemblies and drawings, everything was good when creating but next day I tried to open for finish or later on for further edit, I always had some error popping.
Another quote:
Most medium/large companies don't use cloud storage for security reasons.
Most medium/large companies don't use Alibre for some reason, so they are not the companies you should always follow. Many big companies still use software made for DOS. Small companies and startups keep the world moving forward, that is why big companies want to buy them (Alibre vs 3Dsystems).
I'm not selling anything here so if you wan't further proof; try it, it doesn't cost anything.
My personal fantasy is to see Full cloud Alibre someday.
Lew_Merrick
Guest
It will work only if what you do is neither proprietary, confidential, classified, or important.3dcad.fi said:
JST
Alibre Super User
Lew_Merrick said:
+10 on that.
ONLY acceptable if it is an option that can be de-selected in a positive way so it is not activaed. NOT like my Visa card, which is supposed to be a credit card only, but got slammed through as a debit twice by auto repair places recently, despite me not entering a PIN.
It has to be IMPOSSIBLE to do cloud, or I am junking Alibre.
Mibe
Alibre Super User
A good solution could be that the cad application itself is in the could, but the handling of your model files are traditional.
Perhaps a tricky solution and probably necessary to install some control application locally to handle traffic but it should be possible. I know Alibre had some patent close to this, but perhaps it's now owned by 3D Systems?
Perhaps a tricky solution and probably necessary to install some control application locally to handle traffic but it should be possible. I know Alibre had some patent close to this, but perhaps it's now owned by 3D Systems?
JST
Alibre Super User
Mibe said:
So, why does it need to be cloud-based at all? Why is it against the law to have a program just work locally and not need to go elsewhere except perhaps to check license once in a while?
We have a computer for financial records. It runs old software. TThe REASON for it ruining old software is that all the more recent S/W requires an internet connection, and a lot of it is firing off messages all over the place.....trying to pull data from otehr locations, etc, etc. That is NOT how I want my investment information handled. We like to control access to it, but apparently these days you have to post all that on your front door, with passwords and so forth.....
I don't see why a CAD system should be REQUIRED to spray your data everywhere.
Nor why it has to have an open internet connection all the time you are using it, passing your data back and forth, and of course storing it local to the program in the cloud while it works on it. No doubt storing it longer "just in case you need it again soon"..... kind of the way the "ribbon" (which I hate) is supposed to know what you want to do next.
It's a violation of the NDA just to use the program for protected data......
bigseb
Alibre Super User
Mibe said:
Bad idea. Some people, myself included, work on massive projects. Its not uncommon for me to receive step file that are 500 to 700 Mb. This requires significant computing power, something that isn't in the CAD company's interest to provide. Not to mention the sheer amount of data sent back and forth or the complexity of the some of the operations or the sensitivity of the data...
bigseb
Alibre Super User
So actually the answer is 'no'. No pay, no use.3dcad.fi said:
Not all countries/areas have this service readily available. And often when it is then it isn't reliable.3dcad.fi said:
Like it or not, computers are vulnerable. Wannacry is the latest example. Data needs to be protected and leaks need to be plugged. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, governments etc, etc have all been hacked at some point. Keeping it in-house provides an extra level of protection.3dcad.fi said:
I wanted to and wasn't allowed. So say our automotive clients. No cloud.3dcad.fi said: